to wonder why anyone with young children would have a dog as a pet or on their home?

[needtobediscreet]

In light of the many incidents of death and injury caused to young children by dogs, even those not previously considered a danger, I can't help but wonder WHY anyone would. The latest seems to involve a six day old baby in west Wales.

Don't get me wrong, I love animals. I grew up with cats and had a pet dog myself when I was in secondary school. But the nicest of dogs can 'turn' it seems and the results are a lot worse than when a cat gets a bit upset.

Clearly in the majority of cases the affected families weren't deliberately neglectful but why take the risk?

I'm prepared for lots of responses from dog owners....!!!

Don't be daft bluedays, that's not what lougle is saying at all, and you know it. If you can't see the difference between a postman pushing a letter through a letterbox, or a visitor being invited into the house via the front door, and a bloke jumping over a fence into an enclosed garden, uninvited, then you have issues.

A few sensible dog owners have commented too and seem to have followed the expert advice I.e. get a puppy not a dog and not a rescue dog

There is nothing wrong with getting a rescue dog. All our dogs have been rescue dogs, in fact most of the dogs I know (and I am with at least 7 dogs daily) are rescue dogs and have been no more trouble, are no less well trained, no more agressive, no more problematic than a dog from a breeder. In fact I would say they much better for a family because they will have been observed and tested with other animals, children, strangers etc and the family that is apply to home them will also be tested for their suitablity to be dog owners.

Don't get "Rescue" mixed up with "Off a bloke down the pub" - they are two completely different things.

Issues? That's a bit strong. That statement is ridiculous.

The thing is a child could enter the back garden uninvited-as they often do, to retrieve a ball or similar.

Dogs should be trained to be subservient to ALL human beings. Simple as that. Even then it's no guarantee of it not attacking; but at least the owner tried.

It's as if dog owners can tell what their dog is thinking or something. They don't. Even experts get it wrong.

Why take the risk? Either get something that is very unlikely to do much damage even if it attacks-thinking Yorkie-sized dog with small jaws and a child of about 7 here, or don't take the risk.

Can I recommend a book that my DS1 has just finished reading? It's called Stuff that Scares your Pants Off!
www.amazon.co.uk/Stuff-That-Scares-Your-Pants/dp/0330477242

It has a great section on irrational fears, I think some of the people on this thread could do with reading it, it will help you to put the risk of a dog bite into perspective.

Idiotic...
It's only an irrational fear if people didn't get bitten by dogs- but they do! and killed... and all too often

But it's not "all too often" that's the whole point, as has been pointed out over and over again on this thread!

My ds was very badly bitten as a toddler (hospitalised, blood transfusion, 2 operations, one to save his life and on elastic surgery on the scar area). It was a border collie that ran out of woodland when we were walking in a country park.

However, he's ok with dogs now, thanks to the Late Great Dougal (a Scottie who lived round the corner from us), though he still stiffens if he sees a collie.

Even with this experience, I think dogs and children can co-exist well if it's all done sensibly. This dog was out of control and aggressive, it was totally unprovoked.

We would never have a dog, we're not dog people, never have been. We still have animals (cat, guinea pigs, getting a new rabbit this weekend!), I'm just not a fan of dogs as pets. My worst injury from an animal was an infected hamster bite (thanks, Janet the Hamster).

The surgery was plastic, not elastic!!

Yes issues. I don't think that is strong at all. You come across as someone who just cannot be wrong. Someone who has to 'win the fight' no matter what and under no circumstances will you listen to or accede to another POV.

A grown man jumping over a fence, uninvited, into a garden where a dog is securely enclosed is completely different to a "postmen, delivery men, even a lost child" and nowhere did lougle agree that "your dog would have become aggressive towards them, even bitten them, but it would be OK with you?"

You are using a strawman arguement to make a point, even if you do make it badly. I find that reminicent of the posters in the Relationship topics who talk about the 'controlling' people in their lives and how they act.

So yes, I think 'issues' is correct. I am quite prepared to be wrong (because I don't have issues), but that is what I surmise from your posts on this topic. It is the 'feeling' I get from your posts.

Maybe I should have said irrationally high fears?

oh right-- so right, how many babies should be killed before it's 'too often'? I would argue that number is 1.

LtEve - spokesperson for Kennel Club on news yday advised against getting a rescue dog if you have children. But what would they know?

The other tragedy in all this is the abundance of unwanted dogs due to overbreeding and irresponsible owners. I'm not saying dog owners should dump their dogs when they know kids are on the way but why get a dog if you plan to have kids? Wait and if you must get a dog, get one after your kids arrive, as per the expert advice.

Let those without kids rescue the unwanted dogs.

Oh good grief. Obviously no babies should be killed.

According to numbers I've seen around, there is on average, 1 child killed by a dog this year. Yes, yes, that's 1 too many, but why the hate campaign specifically against dogs?
2 children per year are killed by blind cords, that's more than dogs kill.
About 100-150 children per year drown, most of them in baths, pools and garden ponds.
10 children die each year from falling through a window.

Do you have a bath and windows in your house?

Yes YABU, and you are being manipulated by media scare stories.

Your life is filled with things that kill more people than their own pet dogs do. Your pantry is full of fatty food, your home has electrical appliances, perhaps stairs, perhaps ladders, etc.

Engage rational thought and disengage emotions and pet dogs won't seem like the national tsunami of furry death they are being presented as in the media.

If anything changed in the last 20-30 years about dogs, it is probably that more people who own them, act like useless arses.

LtEve - spokesperson for Kennel Club on news yday advised against getting a rescue dog if you have children. But what would they know?

Considering that the KC exists because of and ONLY down to people breeding dogs for money. Using their dogs reproductive organs as cash cows. Risking an animals health to bring yet another litter into an already overpopulated world. Then I don't think they know much about 'proper' rescues - especially those that take on the ex-breeding dogs that are thrown out at the age of 5 because their uterus's are so damaged another litter would kill them and they can't make any money off them.

Ask someone that works in the Rescue world - not someone who contributes to the problem.

Do you go outside NormalishDude? Do you make the decision to be outside and risk getting killed in a myriad of different ways every day? Or do you work from home and order your shopping online, never stepping foot outside from an irrationally high fear of being killed?

In my view, the benefits of owning a dog outweigh the minute risk of the dog killing my baby (and I was right, he didn't), in the same way that the benefits of going outside outweigh the minute (but higher than the chance of my dog killing my baby) chance of dying every time I do.

This is my view, you are entitled to your own view obviously, but I still think it's an irrationally high fear.

Hazy - blind cords can v easily be made safe, a bath and windows are much more of a necessity than a dog for the average person, despite the risks they pose and I would under no circumstances have a pond in my garden while I have young children, despite the life-enhancing benefits it may offer me and my family!

LtEve - I'm not defending the Kennel Club wholesale and am aware of utterly cruel breeding practices. Are you saying you recommend families with young children get adult dogs from a rescue though?

Statistically a child is hundreds of times more likely to die by abuse or neglect from a parent than by a dog attack.
Clearly, if child safety is you aim, it would be smarter to get rid of the parents.

yes and dogs can be made safe around kids but not bloody leaving them alone with small children!!

I'll lay my cards on the table. I don't have a dog and have never had one since being independent of my parents (we had a labrador when I was under seven).
If I was to have one I would consider: What is the history of the breed of dog and its use to humans in history (I'm still trying to get my head around why anybody would want a husky in a two up two down, knowing that huskies, in cold places are the nearest things to horses in terms of how they were bred ).

2. How many hours a day I would be away from home and how this relates to how much exercise the dog would require in order to elicit reasonable behaviour.

3)Do I live in a house with a reasonable garden or a flat with none. One never knows when one will be incapacitated. The dog will still need to have a "run around" if not long walks in the park.

4. How many vulnerable non adults live with me. Sorry, as a human, apart from being cruel to an animal, I don't think that a young human should have to "adjust' their spontaneous behaviour to tie in with an animal. Let kids be inquisitive. If their natural behaviour isn't conductive to having a dog, no dog.

5)Don't "humanise" the dog. I'm not saying that pets are not for human comfort. However the drippy sentiments of "my staff is harmless" can easily be interpreted as "my staff is harmless around me". Psychologists can barely get their heads around BDP and NPD. How is Layman Charlie really going to know what goes on in the mind of an animal. If humans were as cute as they thought they were in relation to dogs there wouldn't be any dog shit on the street. The "responsible" owners would have sorted out the miscreants a long time ago. Instead , too many do the ostrich thing of "not MY dog" when these stories come out, or when somebody brings up the the business of less stray dogs about but the dog shit levels on the street haven't gone down.

6. Dogs probably don't have thumbs because they have teeth. Think about it. (I know this goes for other pets, too). Those gnashers and jaws are there for a reason, regardless of the "mood" of the dog.

7. A non human animal knows it is not a human, even if humans swear up and down that they have the measure of the animal's psyche. I wouldn't forget that. Humans have enough trouble communicating with each other. It's arrogant to think that we fully "know" an animal. I'd always err on the side of "what if".

LtEve - I'm not defending the Kennel Club wholesale and am aware of utterly cruel breeding practices. Are you saying you recommend families with young children get adult dogs from a rescue though?

No, that isn't what I said. What I said is that a decent Rescue will have checked and rechecked the dogs in their care. They will have introduced them to children, other animals, strangers etc. My daughter is quite often used by the Rescue I volunteer at, to see how a dog reacts to her. She is never in any danger because it is done safely and securely. There have been times when DD herself has said "actually, there is something about that dog I don't like" and the Rescue owner immediately puts a 'no kids' mark against the dogs name.

A puppy from a Rescue is no different to a puppy from a breeder, except lots of breeders keep their money earners seperate to their homes, so they have no idea how to act in a home environment - Most Rescues will try to foster a litter of puppies within a family environment that includes children and other animals to help nurture the training they will later receive - very few breeders would do the same.

just - are you sure that a dog has never attacked anyone, including a child, in the presence of an adult...?!

I've pinched this from another thread (thanks LtEveDallas) but here are the child death stats from the government. Obvious unpleasant reading
Co-sleeping is listed as the sole cause of 1% of all deaths, and a contributing factor in 3%
report here

This equates to nearly 40 children a year dying from co-sleeping, with well over 100 possibly dying from it.

All the posters who want to ban families owning dogs, are you are fully supportive of a complete ban on co-sleeping?