To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

redtoothbrush I agree, going for EFTA-EEA membership would be a reasonable option - that was more worse case scenario!

Enough with referring to scots as whinging. It's pathetic. We have a major decision to make and every right to discuss it and ask questions

Hear hear, Statistically

Just to throw a question out there:In the event of a No vote will the UK government recalculate the Barnet formula so Scotlands proportion of spending is in line with the rest of UK?

I am English and really no opinion on if the vote should be yes or no. Watching the news and reading threads on here i am just amazed that any Scottish person knows how they are going to vote.
I can't believe they have called a referendum without first having all the answers in place, i dont think it is right to expect people to make such a huge decision based on if,but & maybe.

But we have no answers if it's a no vote either.

Trouble is the no camp are using the EU tax thing as an argument against Independence. Thats highly unlikely and misrepresentative too. It doesn't help people who don't understand the politics but want to. It does damage the merits of the no campaign to do that.

These facts and figures are interesting:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266

I doubt it Mumzy. My understanding is that the figures aren't that straight forward - so the latest figures show Scotland getting a bigger "per head" share than the UK as a whole, but there are also massive discrepancies across the rest of the UK. Northern Ireland gets more than anywhere else, and the south east gets stuffed ;) They might try to change it though, you never know

Part of this is due to how the public sector is defined too - water for example isn't privatised in Scotland - it's paid for alongside council tax. I think the cost of providing the same level of service varies considerably too - so it costs more to collect rubbish, provide midwifery services etc in the highlands, remote parts of Wales etc than it does in the south east. I'd guess a fair part of the cost difference in Northern Ireland might be security/policing costs - it will cost more to maintain a similar level of safety?

RedToothBrush I haven't seen anything from the No campaign on that - I was at work and posting from my own brain! I was more trying to emphasize that the EU isn't a trivial issue but I accept I put it badly. Joys if trying to type something coherent on a mobile phone screen!

FannyFifer We have no Conservatives though bit they would be more than welcome

In Scotland, the role of the Conservatives has long been taken over by the Labour Party...

What the Scots haven't realised is that is they want free university amazing healthcare without English support well there will have to be very high taxes.

Plus yes, no Scottish labour mps means there will always always be Tory rule in Westminster - so much so that I can't understand why Cameron and Osborne aren't backing the independence bid!

On the topic of cross-party support, Labour, Libdems, Greens have been mentioned, and Conservatives4Independence have a Facebook page! Don't know why I can't c'n'p the link, but a google search for "Conservatives for Independence Scotland" finds it.

This really is a grassroots movement.

But do they want Scotland to stay, hmmmm.

Here's a funny clip from Comedian Daft Limmy which explains it's

Ah, bugger, ignore my last, it's a parody page. Shouod have read before posting...

foreveronadiet I don't think that's actually true. With the exception of the last election when the tories would have had a majority without Scotland, the Scottish vote being taken out of the equation would not have changed the outcome of any recent election. The info I read may have been incorrect but I've seen that debunked in a fair few places

The figures aren't that straightforward either - god I sound like a "yes" voter now which I'm not but the whole "scotland the sponge" thing isn't entirely factual

I think Alex Salmond's speech yesterday was one of the worst I have ever heard him make, normally I think he is very good even if I disagree with him, but yesterday it seemed a case of "George Osbourne this, George Osbourne that, blame that nasty Tory Chancellor in Westminster for not letting us do what we want." He failed to give any credible answers or assurances to what are very serious issues.

If Scotland becomes independent then the rest of the UK will act in the interests of the rest of the UK and if that means a currency union is not in their interests then Scotland has to accept that.

It is an absolute fact that Spain will vote against Scotland joining the EU, not because they have anything against Scotland but because of their own internal issues. Spain were furious that the UK Government agreed to a referendum for Scottish Independence because it gave impetus to the independence campaigns of the Basque region and Catalonia, and the Spanish government can see no benefit to furthering those campaigns by allowing an independent Scotland into the EU.

However, I think that if Scotland votes "No" to independence we shold not revert to the status quo we should look at the whole system of governance in the UK and make it fairer and more equitable for all citizens of the UK. At the moment the perception is one of unfairness throughout the country, most believe that politics is far too London and South East centric, London and the South East believe they put in the most, Scottish politicians shouldn't be allowed to vote on legislation that only effects England and Wales, etc., etc. We are a nation of intelligent and fair minded people and we should be able to come up with a system that is not so divisive - or should I just book my ticket to cloud-cuckoo land now?

"What are the main reasons the UK govt wants to keep Scotland in the union?"

You would really think that the pro-union campaign would have answered this question by now, but depressingly all we're getting from them is a blanket 'we're better together' and a load of reasons why it won't work. I would really welcome some positive input from them.

And to the poster who suggested a UK wide vote, I fear this would negate the results - the problem is (and always has been) we have too small a voting share for our voices to be heard.

If Scotland votes no then I would like to see England have its own devolved government. It is monstrously unfair that Scottish mps can vote on things like the English education system.

Interestingly, DS1, who is in S4 and will be eligible to vote, and his classmates have been holding debates on the issue - the outcome of the debates is that they will almost all be voting No on the basis of insufficient infrastructure and provisions in place.

Re EU membership

You do all realise don't you that the conservatives will have to fully commit to an 'in or out' referendum on uk membership of the EU if they are to stave off Ukip. The result of such a referendum is frankly anyone's guess.

So if Scotland leaves the UK they may loose automaticmembership of the EU and will have some political spade work to do to regain full membership. If they stay in the UK and Nigel Farrage et al. Get there way Scotland will loose its place in the EU with no hope of ever everrejoining.

I was contacted by Mori on Sunday about this. I'm a Labour voter , working in the private sector. I wouldn't trust Salmond an inch. There is no good reason for breaking up the Union.

Just because George Osborne said it, doesn't automatically follow it's wrong.

In my particular sector it is taken as read one will be opposed to independence. I haven't met anyone professionally who is for it. From friends and family 3 people but they have always been Nats.

putthePuffindown Tue 18-Feb-14 17:25:48
"What are the main reasons the UK govt wants to keep Scotland in the union?"

Stability.

A yes vote creates instability in the rest of the Uk, and that is not good economically as credit ratings are linked to both political and economic stability.

It also, as mentioned above with the example of Spain, gives impetus to fuel other nationalist interests within Europe. That is not good economically or politically for the rest of Europe and this has an effect on us.

One of the reasons that the EU are keen to include the former Yugoslav states is precisely because of this question of instability. And why there is the clause about nations that vote for independence from an existing state do not automatically retain membership. It is to prevent conflict and discourage fracturing of states and to maintain current borders. The union of the EU was born out of the desire to prevent further unrest on the continent and to encourage focusing on common goals rather than on regional self interest.

In terms of exceptions being made to this for Scotland, it won't happen because of the wider implications of allowing it. The only circumstances that I envisage this as a possibility would be if Scotland was to go down the route of even more extension devolution and could adequately prove its ability to self govern was already completely in place and that independence was little more than a formality rather than a massive leap into the unknown.

This is why I really object to the way Salmond frames it as picking on Scotland. Its not about Scotland - its actually something of an over inflated sense of self. Its about how it effects others outside Scotland on a wider scale.

Salmond no longer expects a 'yes' vote, but has to pretend otherwise to save face.

Westminster Tories do want a 'yes' vote, as this guarantees power in perpetuity, but have to pretend otherwise.

Posters like OLKN and FF are their 'idiots utiles', not meant disparagingly but with reference to the 1946 useage.

When 'no' happens, as is inevitable, the Westminster Tories will screw Scotland, from whom they derive no political capital, revisit Barnett and play up to the lowest 'Engerland' denominator with nothing to lose.

Poor Scotland is Salmond's toy and will become the Westminster Tories' bitch.

Scuse me - Salmond is a teuchter, Banff and Buchan. I haven't met many (any?) Yes voters in Aberdeen to date. Think we're all aware that Salmond is looking at us as his cash cow - higher taxes and the strong possibility of oil companies pulling out.