To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

that's a great post RTB.

Its not about Scotland - its actually something of an over inflated sense of self. looks like AS is projecting.

You do all realise don't you that the conservatives will have to fully commit to an 'in or out' referendum on uk membership of the EU if they are to stave off Ukip.

Latest attempt to get a referendum in place was booted out the Lords recently on a technically... I suspect that the Lords will be as obstructive as possible for some time to come.

So Megrim you think its more a case of people who live in places like Banff and Buchan and maybe further to the west towards Inverness who have this idealised view of independence, more so than those who are involved in business and actually generating the majority of the wealth?

And yes janetbb they are. But indoctrination starts young here...

I don't think a No vote guarantees Scotland being screwed over by Westminster. I think there will be a sufficient Yes vote to make the idea of self determination harder to ignore. Unless the turnout for a No vote is tiny, which it won't be, it only strengthens the need for Westminster to listen to Scotland. However I do think there will be renewed looking at Scotland's influence on the rest of the Uk as a consequence of the vote.

Plus yes, no Scottish labour mps means there will always always be Tory rule in Westminster - so much so that I can't understand why Cameron and Osborne aren't backing the independence bid!

That is very telling isnt it.

Its not actually true electryone

No, I think it's more of an issue in the Central Belt. I haven't heard anything much at all in the North East about the referendum. The oil companies are already twitchy, if the taxation regime doesn't become more favorable they will mothball the North Sea until it becomes worth exploiting again. There is very little exploration happening.

I was just pointing out that Salmond doesn't represent Aberdeen. Our MSPs are a mixture of SNP (2), Labour (2), Conservative and Unionist (2), Lib Dem (1).

'Indoctrination'? Honestly, LessMissAbs, you could play bingo with the things you come out with whenever Scotland's dreadfulness is being discussed

emotionsecho Tue 18-Feb-14 17:20:32
It is an absolute fact that Spain will vote against Scotland joining the EU, not because they have anything against Scotland but because of their own internal issues.

Will they give up fishing in the North Sea quite so easily?

Profondo Do you have the same views on independence as your parents and your schoolteachers by any chance? Come on, be truthful now.

Well, LMA, it's rather difficult to say considering there's a very wide spread of Yes, No and undecided among my friends and family.

And my schoolteachers? How on earth would I know? I'm 28. I left school in 2003.

Will they [Spain] give up fishing in the North Sea quite so easily?

Spain cannot afford for Catalan separation to gather any more pace. I don't see them blocking Scotland completely, but making it very very tough- no concessions (e.g. Euro, border posts)

If Scotland votes no then I would like to see England have its own devolved government. It is monstrously unfair that Scottish mps can vote on things like the English education system.

And it is fair that Scotland have so little power over their country as it stands at the moment?

I also note you say England, what about Ireland and Wales? You know the remainder of the UK that people in favour of the No Vote want to stay oh so United.

Will it be fair to be in a situation where Scotland has NO say in its destiny or trading partners?

It is a fallacy to say that Independence will bring about more power and more say for the Scottish people in what happens to them.

The reality is more between a choice of things they have control over.

In may be better to maintain the union and focus on the issues of inequality rather than to look upon independence as the Holy Grail of freedom.

You may find the reality rather more sobering if you don't seriously consider this.

Personally, I think that there is a very strong case to address the issues of fairness between Scotland and the rest of the UK. I just don't think that Independence is the way to go about doing it, and will achieve the things that people want it to - at this stage in Scotland's history. Its possible that may change in the future. I just don't think its in the best interests of any Scots right now. Even the most disadvantaged, in fact especially the most disadvantaged.

And it is fair that Scotland have so little power over their country as it stands at the moment?

Will independence seriously increase this?

Scotland will have no control over interest or exchange rates, debt levels or borrowing powers if it gains independence and decides to use the pound. Even the bank notes would still come from rUK.

If they are allowed into the EU, they will have to jump through every hoop. There are 5 million Scots and 500 million other EU citizens. We aren't big enough to have enough influence.

This is very interesting .... funny how the "no" voters don't know anyone voting yes, and the "yes" voters don't seem to know anyone voting no.

I'll admit I'm going to vote yes - and that's probably more with my heart than my head.

Salmond is a bit of an arse. That much is true - but no more than our current head of uk government. They're all arses.

Funnily enough, my dd1's school has held the debates other pps have talked about (dd will be 20 months too young to vote, but dh, who is Irish, is allowing her to decide his vote) and there's an overwhelming "yes" feeling in her school. Not sure if that's because it's a Gaelic medium school.

We need to vote for what we personally believe is best, not for ourselves, but for Scotland. Not the uk. Dh and I both have devolved responsibility public sector jobs (me in education, him in health) and we would be more than happy to pay more tax to provide better services on the Scandinavian model. In fact, a discussion about whether Scotland would be better off as part of Scandinavia was viewed very positively in this house!

I do think the uk would (whatever it would be called) be worse off without the mitigating effect that Scotland has. But I'm not responsible for that - I'm responsible for voting for the future of my country, and I've always regarded myself as Scottish, not British.

Salmond won't be in power for ever. However, the result of the referendum is a generational issue. I remember the referendum in 1979 - and my father's frustration at living in London and not being able to vote! I'll possibly be able to vote on this issue once more in my life if it fails this time.

I think if devo-max had been on the table most Scots would have voted for it. And that it will probably be implemented after the vote. Cameron has missed a trick on that!

Scotland is only better off without the rest of the UK if it receives 90-95% of the North Sea oil revenues otherwise it receives more than it contributes.

Even with North Sea oil I believe it "spends" more than it "earns" according to the last GERS figures - it's just that with a geographical share of oil it's deficit is smaller than the UK as a whole

Primal I imagine Spain would be loathe to give up fishing in the North Sea and would probably flout the laws Scotland imposes, Scotland would have to defend those areas - with what? The Navy leased from the rUK?, their own Navy?. Scotland would probably have to take legal action against Spain, Spain would tie it up in legal and bureaucratic knots with the assistance of the EU. The cost to Spain of the loss of Catalonia and the Basque region, both politically and financially, would pale in comparison to the loss of fishing rights in the North Sea.

Would that be the case if it had to introduce more infrastructure in terms of law and international relations? I don't think this is often factored in, in terms of whether Scotland would be better off alone.

The figures I was mentioning are current RedToothBrush. I haven't seen any solid protections for after because ....well nobody knows! There would be a lot of infrastructure costs (and set up costs) which I haven't seen quantified

My son is in Aberdeen and reports yes voters fairly thin on the ground amongst his friends. He can't see any reason for it either.

My husband's brother is rabidly in favour but he always has been. As one of the first things bil said to me decades ago was "how come you speak the way you do when you come from [small north-east town ]?" his opinion on anything is of no worth.

I've also been accused by him of not being proud of being Scottish, which oddly is one of his more perceptive remarks. There are several things I've done in my life of which I am proud; the geographical accident of being born north of Hadrian's Wall isn't one of them.

Lesmis I find you incredibly offensive. Do you really think that we are all sheep without minds and opinions of our own? That mindsets are just handed down through the generations? Ridiculous.

Would that be the case if it had to introduce more infrastructure in terms of law and international relations

Scotland already has its own legal system. In terms of international stuff it would be due a share of UK embassies/Scotland already has its own trade delegations etc independent of rUK