To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

For me, I am proud to be part of a union (I'm English btw). I truly believe everybody benefits and we are stronger united than divided. We have greater presence and bargaining internationally if united rather than divided. That's it in a nutshell, nothing more complicated than that for me.

Of they have a vested interest scottishmummy.

The heart will rule the head for many Scots, especially in the Central Belt, as it is such an emotive subject. There are massive issues that the SNP are skating over, just saying "this is what we want to happen" with no Plan B for when these things can't or won't happen.

Mr Salmond is looking to the North Sea to prop up the Scottish economy, risky as exploration has dropped off massively due to the ever increasing cost of production in what are now old fields and easier pickings in other parts of the world. BP has already issued a warning on the independence issue.

Given that we as a family are likely to get hammered with even more tax if the Yes vote wins out, we are already making an exit plan (as are a few others I know).

Traditionally and currently families move and follow work,economic trends
If you want to move as result of a yes vote,move
Simple as that

I agree that his approach is a bit...blinkered. There is a chance that they are all bluffing but there is also a darn big chance that they are not. Spain have outright said that they would not let an independent Scotland join and unless I have misread the eu rules we need unanimous apapproval from the eu member states. Given that Spain have stuck to their word and failed to recognise kosovo for the same reasons I don't think that assuming they are bluffing is a safe bet.

I'm in the no camp, being unable to make a clear argument from either side however plan to make time before September to understand both arguments further.

The Isle of Man however seems to exist without being part if the EU or Sterling.

I wish Scotland would go independent! I am sick of all their whining! And I don't believe that it would lead to Labour being unelectable. They would just have to change their policies, that's all. No point in continuing on with policies that not enough people in England and Wales are prepared to vote for.

You're exactly the inarticulate poster that populates these threads Donna
A political movement isn't whining

I would hope that the majority of people in Scotland are going to base their vote on a little more than sectarian emotions.

OF COURSE they are, MrMaker. We'll make our decisions based on a lot more than 'sectarian emotions.' I completely understand your bafflement with all the stuff your cousin is posting off idiotic Facebook pages - I hate having to look at emotive, ill informed stuff like that too.

But I'm getting so sick of the apparently common notion on MN that we Scots are a bunch of bosom beating idiots who place more value in a romantic idea of an independent Scotland than in the real life changes/consequences/improvements it might prompt. We are not.

OK, scottishmummy, ignoring the name calling, how do you explain what the OP summed up pretty well, which is that AS doesn't actually have a plan to overcome these very significant issues, other than blind hope.

It seems to me the Yes vote is more about a dislike of England than a desire to create a viable independent country.

Donna sod off and stop being a numpty. I'm an anti but I would not dismiss the entire pro movement as whining. Let alone the entire population of a country. You know we're not one homogenous mass!

Keep telling yourselves it's about Salmond, half the people turning up at YesScotland events are Labour Party voters. They know its not about one man.

That's what will win the Referendum.

I don't agree at all ScottishMummy, there have been some very articulate and knowledgeable posts on here.

I'm English living in Scotland and although part of me thinks I have no right to vote, if I do vote it will be no.

"But if the Scots vote for independence I suspect that it will be a very expensive ego-trip for them all."

I agree with this and I think most yes voters are voting with their hearts, not with their heads - understandably, because Scottish pride and the desire to stick it to the English have deep roots. You don't get to be in the position Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon are in unless you've dreamed of an independent Scotland all your life. They're not going to suddenly stand up now and go "Errrm, maybe this isn't such a good idea." They have to push on at this point or look like total idiots.

I also, for all its faults, still love England and I don't want to sentence it to Tory rule for ever.

What I do think should happen is a federal UK in which England, Wales, Scotland and NI all get equal amounts of devolution, with a federal government still managing a united currency and federal tax system. I think a lot of the problem is feeling ruled from London and that London belongs to England.

apparently common notion on MN that we Scots are a bunch of bosom beating idiots who place more value in a romantic idea of an independent Scotland than in the real life changes/consequences/improvements it might prompt

I know my post may look that way PR, but I live here too and I see those breast-beaters and have had their sneery anti-English venom aimed at me. And I have been told (by a supermarket checkout worker) that I can go home once the Scots get independence. I'm not saying it's everyone, but I think that is a significant factor in the yes vote. I also think it's interesting that there is a large, very considered, no vote among Scots who are also looking at this practically and with eyes wide open.

I'm Scottish and I haven't yet met anybody who's going to vote with their emotions. I know, definite no voters, definite yes voters but most people are still listening to the debate and don't know yet, I'm one of them.

Scottishmummy, I feel my OP was less a veiled attack, and more of a direct attack!

I agree that Scotland and the rUK are stronger together, but my main view is that the I really can't believe that life in an independent Scotland would be vastly different for the ordinary person on the street, than it currently is in the UK. We all pay taxes, we all work, we all have a health system, politicians will still run it all. It's not like Scotland are trying to run away from a despotic regime (no jokes about Cameron!)

I just can't get over what a colossal waste of time it would be for all the currently joint organisations and services to be split up between Scotland and rUK, when in reality I think our two countries are very very similar.

I get depressed thinking about all the time and effort someone in an important organisation would spend "separating" part of the organisation to work alone in Scotland, when they could have been spending all that time doing things beneficial for the organisation and the people using it!

SpineinaBap (love your name!) I think that's so true. You see it in other organisations too like the NHS, education system and businesses - the desire to change everything and do it a new way and have a brave new world - which costs vasts amount of time and money to set up and then isn't remarkably different, except that money is tighter.

I cannot believe people think the Scots are such neanderthals that we would make a decision as important as the fate of our country based on 'heart' over 'head.'

Pardon my French, but it's downright fucking offensive. I don't know ANYONE who fits this image of the average voting Scot. I certainly don't.

So which way will you be voting ProfundoRosso? And what is the reasoning behind your choice?

I'm genuinely intrigued to know on what basis the Yes voters have made their decision, if it isn't based on a hatred of the English, as it doesn't seem to me that sufficient information on how a devolved Scotland would actually work, has been given.

I think if a post resorts to puerile name calling AS then yes I think less of it
The recent media coverage and froth on mn is emphasising the personal not the political

spineinabab hear hear.

Yes, but scottishmummy you haven't actually posed a defensive for AS's head in the sand stance.

scottishmummy I think you'll find a large part of the Aberdeen oil industry are economic migrants. If oil professionals and oil companies can't make money here they will vote with their feet. Won't bode well for Salmond's oil fund will it?

I don't think Scots are Neanderthals, I've clearly said many are thinking clearly and practically and with their heads. You don't need to take offence just because some Scots are blindly nationalistic. Plenty of English people are like that too, if you pointed that out I wouldn't be clutching my pearls.

And to go back to the OP, I think this is exactly the issue that was raised – the SNP position is that we want an independent Scotland because we want an independent Scotland, and we'll do whatever it takes and struggle through whatever we have to to get there, and yah boo sucks to anyone who points out major obstacles.

Not we want an independent Scotland because, on balance, we'd all be so much better off and it would be a sensible move. That is not their position. They are looking for arguments (or glossing over obstacles) in order to push on with a nationalist agenda – by definition.