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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

599 replies

SpineInABap · 18/02/2014 08:25

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

OP posts:
ListenToTheLady · 18/02/2014 12:14

Actually, I think there's a difference between plain old national pride and wanting to be independent for politically nationalist reasons, and actual unpleasant, racist Anti-English sentiment.

You can want to stick it to the English in a general, historical way without actually hating or behaving badly towards English people individually.

I have experienced anti-English racism that's been closely bound up with wanting independence, but I definitely don't think yes voters are generally or all like that.

Some yes voters could like the idea of an independent Scotland for what you could call "emotional" reasons like pride, liking the idea of autocracy, wanting to return Scotland to a perceived original pre-Union state, etc. without hating English people. I don't think it's madness to suggest feelings like that play a part. They certainly have in many other countries' independence journeys.

HighlanderMam · 18/02/2014 12:27

I'm pretty sure SM won't give you any answers so you might as well quit asking. Grin

StatisticallyChallenged · 18/02/2014 12:28

Ireland created their own pound which they pegged to sterling as was very common at that time following the demise of the gold standard. They broke the link when they joined the European exchange rate mechanism in 1979. It was a very different time economically with fixed exchange rates and a massive sterling area either using or pegged to sterling. It's not really comparable to the way economies run now

trampstamp · 18/02/2014 12:41

poster youmakemydreams

You are wrong re the bluffing

*many countries have the $ however a Lagos $ is not worth a us $ and this will be the issue a Scottish pound most likely won't Be worth what a British pound would be worth

Also the man named after a fish forgets about RBS it's not a Scottish bank it's and they are already making plans for it to be moved in the event of a yes vote that will be devastating y jobs as well as the money sector

ProfondoRosso · 18/02/2014 12:45

You can want to stick it to the English in a general, historical way without actually hating or behaving badly towards English people individually

I don't get how you can want to 'stick it' to someone without that meaning you feel antipathy towards them, ListenLady. If emotional reasons play a part, I would think they'd be better conceptualised in the majority of people as a sense of self-determining pride in Scotland's culture, what it creates etc rather than simply as 'let's run away from the big, bad English.'

When Algeria became independent from France in 1962, they certainly wanted to 'stick it' to the French, because they were justifiably angry at colonial rule and the suppression of their languages and culture. We're not at war with the English - sometimes it seems like people want to perpetuate an image of Scottish 'minority-ness' vi-a-vis England which most of us in Scotland just don't feel.

ProfondoRosso · 18/02/2014 12:46

And I mean both sides perpetuate that image.

trampstamp · 18/02/2014 12:49

And I think those who vote yes on the basis that every one else is playing chicken is crazy

The issue with as is he has no plan b or c

He has been told in one voice by all parties you can't use the pound

The president of the EU has said there will be no special treatment for Scotland

And RBS has said they will moved if it's a yes vote

These are fundamental issues he has no alternative plans to also

Parts of rural Scotland my loose vital services things like the post Royal Mail make a lost posting to sum parts of Scotland however it's written in uk law however Scotland won't be part of the uk and now they are private who will as plan to.

chocolatemademefat · 18/02/2014 12:54

I'm scottish and I dont know anyone who will be voting yes. AS seems to be lying low just now and letting Nicola Sturgeon take the heat - worries me that this will be his game plan in the future if the vote goes his way. I can imagine him ordering a throne and a crown for himself - the whole idea of breaking away scares me.

ProfondoRosso · 18/02/2014 13:00

I was talking to a friend who's Liverpudlian the other day. He and his wife have been living and working in Scotland for a few years. He isn't going to vote in the referendum because he's not sure whether or not he'll stay in Scotland, depending on where work takes him and his wife.

He says he understands why many people will vote yes, but that he is afraid of England, especially the north, being in the position Scotland is now: having a Conservative dominated govt which reflects opinion in the south and not elsewhere.

That really, really made me think. Do we need further devolution? Is that even possible? How can we make this voting system feel fairer? I don't know.

CaptainFabulous · 18/02/2014 13:01

I'm getting thoroughly sick of reading about the referendum framed entirely by Alex Salmond, what he thinks, what he says, what he looks like...

I'm not voting for Alex Salmond. I'm voting on the future of Scotland. They're not one and the same thing. Presumably an election would have to be called if we voted yes?

In my opinion the best thing Alex Salmond could do would be to make it clear that voting for independence is not voting for him, and that in the event of a yes vote, he'd step down.

That would give the yes campaign the biggest shot in the arm it could get.

MrsMagnificent · 18/02/2014 13:05

I am in favour of the yes campaign for many reasons.

That doesn't mean I am voting for Alex Salmond, I am voting for an Independent Scotland. The two are entirely different. There seem to be an awful lot of people who do not understand this.

StatisticallyChallenged · 18/02/2014 13:06

I disagree captain fabulous. The biggest shot in the arm the yes campaign could get would be an actual strategy

HoleyGhost · 18/02/2014 13:10

Statistically Challenged

Given that 92% of the UK do not live in Scotland, how much influence do you imagine conditions there really have on the setting of interest rates now?

FannyFifer · 18/02/2014 13:14

How is Salmond lying low, he has been all over the TV and papers last few days.

FannyFifer · 18/02/2014 13:15

RBS did not say they would move.

myrubberduck · 18/02/2014 13:17

Come on Scotland where is your national pride - who cares about the sodding pound!!!!!

Referendum 2014

What need you being come to sense
But fumble in a greasy till
And add the half pence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer until
You have dried the marrow from the bone
For men were born to pray and save
Romantic Ireland Scotland is dead and gone
It's with O Leary mc diarmuid in the grave

( with apologies to WB Yeats)

FannyFifer · 18/02/2014 13:17

Scottish independence: RBS chief says bank could adapt to 'Yes' vote
12 February 2014 Last updated at 18:51

RBS chief executive Ross McEwan said he had not talked to Vince Cable about moving the bank's head office.
RBS could "adapt" its business in the event of Scotland's independence, bank chief executive Ross McEwan has said.

His comments came after UK Business Secretary Vince Cable said RBS would "inevitably" move its headquarters to London if Scotland became independent.

Mr McEwan said he had not discussed that possibility with Mr Cable, in the event of a "Yes" vote in the 18 September referendum.

The bank boss made his remarks in an online Q&A for the Guardian.

Mr Cable previously told a committee of MPs that, under independence RBS - bailed out by UK taxpayers to the tune of £46bn in 2008 - would want to be based where it was "protected against the risk of collapse".

The Scottish government described the comments about the bank, founded in Edinburgh in 1727, as "ridiculous".

Mr McEwan said: "We've been in Scotland for nearly 300 years. So I need to take this independence issue very seriously.

"It's really important that the Scottish people get the opportunity to vote, and then if I need to adapt my business to serve England, Scotland, Wales and both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, then I will."

He added: "Mr Cable and I have not talked about moving our head office."

Mr McEwan's comments came after Barclays chief executive Antony Jenkins told the BBC his bank "can make it work" if Scotland became independent.

A spokeswoman for the UK government's Department of Business, Innovation and Skills said that Mr Cable had been discussing a hypothetical post-independence scenario with MPs, "where there was no monetary, fiscal or banking union" between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

The spokeswoman added: "The Scottish financial services industry has developed in the context of a single fiscal union across the UK.

"As the UK government and independent commentators have stated, one possible outcome of independence is that the Scottish financial sector would reduce in size and status.

"This would happen if firms themselves react to heightened risk by structuring themselves such that they were no longer headquartered in Scotland."

In September's referendum, voters in Scotland will be asked the Yes/No question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

StatisticallyChallenged · 18/02/2014 13:17

A hell of a lot more than we would have. It's the fact that the variation between the economy of Scotland and the rest of the UK could potentially be far bigger than it is now. We have the same tax regime, same eu membership etc just now which means that the regional variations are smaller. Take those factors out and the economic conditions could be dramatically different.

Actually given the number of large financial institutions currently based in Scotland I suspect that our present level of influence may actually punch above our weight.

RedToothBrush · 18/02/2014 13:18

The few countries which have their version of the pound have economies worth how much? The Scottish economy is worth too much to allow it to run away making decisions for itself without consequence. It is not the same. If there was a major recession in Scotland resulting from independence, if the currency was linked to the pound it would have major consequences south of the border. The powers in Westminster actually have a responsibility to protect the rest of the UK from that. If they did not take steps to secure the stability of the currency they would be being negligent. Given the lessons of the last few years, where economic risks from outside were not considered and the political powers of the time didn't take steps to protect our interests, it would be political suicide not to be making steps like this at this time.

“If there is no legal basis for Scotland having a share of the public asset of the Bank of England, then there is equally no legal basis for Scotland accepting a share of the public liability of the national debt.”

If you want to declare yourself independent, you have joint responsibilities to the other system to which you belongs. Going forward you no longer have that power to interfere, because the principle of independence is you are voting to give up that right and go it alone.

If Scotland wanted to go down that route of abdicating any responsibility for the national debt of the UK then I think it would have a very hard time getting credit in the future. I think a lot of other countries would question its integrity and whether it was honourable in repaying debt. The rest of the remainder of the UK certainly would not view it favourable and would push up lending rates to reflect that and to cover the debts that it was having to cover. Other countries would not be willing to give favourable rates - at least initially - to Scotland due to the political change which would be viewed as a period of uncertainty. Banks and economists do not like unpredictability or uncertainty and rate it unfavourably. Just as you and I not having steady work would be voted badly by mortgage lenders. It just represents higher risk.

The rules of the EU state that any breakaway states have to apply to join the EU. They aren't designed to victimise or bully the Scottish in anyway. They are designed to maintain political stability and economic stability. If England were, in theory, to vote to become independent and no longer be the part of the union, they, because they had voted democratically and freely to do so understanding the consequences, would no longer be part of the EU. Equally, if it were a vote both north and south of the border about whether to maintain the Union, any resulting new nations would not be part of the EU. The rules are designed to favour existing members who do no choose to change their country borders.

Given that Scotland could not be a member of the EU at least initially it raises questions over import/export duties as well as currency. I think that although they would not be part of the EU they probably would be part of the trading group the EEA like Iceland and Norway as it would cause political instability not to include them.

In terms of becoming independent, there are also unresolved issues over international and domestic bureaucracy. Many laws now, both north and south of the border are due to European law - they do not exist in English or Scottish law. If Scotland isn't part of the EU, it creates a problem - there may be gaps which need to be resolved by the Scottish courts and going forward they would not be subject to EU law, so may have gaps that they have to deal with independently. This may be a positive thing; but it may also be a costly thing. Then there's the issue of international diplomacy and representation and embassies.

Scotland has no infrastructure for this. So they will either have to share with the rest of the UK or another nation willing to provide space. In the case of sharing with the rest of the UK this could led to doubling up posts. I hope in this scenario, that Scotland would be charged for this privilege of sharing embassies rather than take it for granted that we would automatically supply this service. It would not be the responsibility of those people south of the border who had not democratically voted for independence to foot any additional costs resulting from independence for which we receive only liability and no benefit whatsoever. Personally, given all this, I might be a bit nervous about travelling in the period after a independence vote if these issues were unresolved in advance. I wouldn't want to be stuck in another country, not really knowing who I could turn to for help.

All in all, I think Salmond is a monumental dick for his comments and leadership. I think he is doing the Scottish people a massive disservice in carrying on headlong to a vote without addressing these issues more seriously and simply accusing the EU and the political leadership in London as bullying. He is completely failing to respect the fact that he has a responsibility to the people who he represents but so does Cameron et el and so does the EU. Their interests and responsibility are to maintain stability - not necessarily to stop Scotland leaving.

If Scotland was to engage and negotiate prior to a vote so that everyone - including those outside Scotland - knew what was being voted for, they would be more inclined not to be so hostile to the proposal. All Salmond has done has been to say things like Scotland would have representation without making sure this would happen. Of course, perhaps Westminster doesn't want to do this - arguably with good reason for aforementioned issue of stability - but that's actually their prerogative to do that. They are within their rights to protect themselves.

Afterall aren't the ones who have a legal right to vote for independence...

If I'm honest about it, if he had been serious about independence and had the best interests of the Scottish people at heart, then increasing devolution even further and increasing the power of Scotland to cover these issues would have been the next step forward rather than a referendum at this point.

StatisticallyChallenged · 18/02/2014 13:20

Myrubberduck my sense of national pride does not overcome my sense of prudence. I don't think I will have much pride in my country if it winds up as a struggling small independent for a generation.

myrubberduck · 18/02/2014 13:28

Well if scotland is not prepared to take that risk then frankly it doesn't deserve independence.

StatisticallyChallenged · 18/02/2014 13:32

Sorry but I don't see taking huge risks as something to be proud of or something which makes someone deserving. There is nothing wrong with wanting to look before you leap.

myrubberduck · 18/02/2014 13:37

Well stay as you are then . Nationhood don't come for free...0

LessMissAbs · 18/02/2014 13:39

I don't see what else Salmond could have done. He has to bluff because the alternative is to backtrack and to admit to uncertainty. I think he knows the vote will not be in favour, but is maintaining face. There is already talk in the SNP of a third referendum on Scottish independence.

It seems to be typical of the educational level of a lot of the Yes campaigners that they struggle to hold a healthy and ethical debate, because they simply cannot conceive that alternative viewpoints to their own have any merit. They equate a No vote with a rejection of Scotland and Scottishness and nationalism, ie an emotive, romantic response, rather than hard economic issues. There is so little political tolerance from some independence supporters, it makes me really worried about how that intolerance would be put into practice in an independent Scotland.

tbh I'm sick and tired of hearing about Scottish independence and how bloody wonderful Scots and Scotland are, how superior they are to every other nation, and how nothing can ever be criticised because it is already so wonderful. Its becoming a very oppressive, intolerant culture to live in. I already have Polish friends who are leaving before the referendum because they can't bear living here any more, and have suffered racism.

RedToothBrush you are accurate in everything you write.

trampstamp · 18/02/2014 13:43

And to all those who think that because of Scotland's share of the national debt the uk will be forced to share the pound which I think as is banking on he has over played his hand

when we make it clear yet again and independent Scotland cannot have the pound the as threatens us with not paying the debt Scotland will bee seen in intonational markets as a defaulter thus it will effect Scotland's ability to borrow so he is basically fucked