To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

Are you a Partick fan?

The question is quite simply, would we prefer to be governed by a gvt we actually elect, or would we prefer rUK (effectively, a few swing constituencies in England) to make those decisions for us?

I'm afraid this logic actually leads into an infinite regress until we don't recognise anyone's authority over us. Sometimes we don't get the government we prefer and that is too bad. There is nothing peculiar about Scotland in this respect. Heck, even during the grisly days of Thatcher, the Conservatives tended to pick up the Scottish constituencies outside the Midland Valley so it's fair to say that plenty of Scots got the government they preferred.

'we want to elect our own government'. You did actually and Scotland has a huge amount of autonomy already. It's so boring listening to the continual same old story about this. One of the many reasons why quite a few of the 50 odd million people south of the border really wouldn't mind/care if the 5 million odd did go it alone. And I'm putting that politely which is quite an effort given how rude I see some of the comments.

Funny that you think independence as outlined by the white paper will actually change anything - it's just a rehash of what you currently have marketed as independence. But you can't be independent unless you stand on your own two feet and be financially independent. There is no substance to it. And the SNP fails to demonstrate with any credibility what alternative plans are in place.

What rubbish about Salmond not being corrupt. What about overruling the council's decision in his own constituency to allow Trump to build his supposedly miracle golf megaplex to create phantom jobs in a protected area against significant opposition from the community and charities such as the Rspb. Ironic he's now trying to distance himself from that and the two former buddies are now at loggerheads. Releasing the Lockerbie bomber? Not politically motivated my arse. The millions wasted on building the monstrosity of the Scottish Executive parliament? I can go on and on if you want me to.

People are so naive if they think he is going to go quietly. If the yes vote goes through it would be very interesting to see how long he does stick around for. He has been the one pushing the agenda for independence all these years and without it he has nothing. But if you want a man like that to lead your Country into the ground then feel free to do so. He's got two more years at least to make a complete mess of it. One need look no further than the last two governments to watch how fast damage can be done. But I forgot, you're not voting for him are you?

Far more people are unlike the Scots than are like them

Please enlighten me, LMA, exactly what are the Scots 'like'?

I see absolutely nothing wrong and everything right with criticism of a country and pointing out faults. As I say, the Dutch do it, the Germans do it (my German friends say that their schools were very strong on the mistakes of the past and faults in the national character so as to avoid past mistakes), I am sure most other nationalities do it, so why the Scots should claim to be exempt I do not know

Are you kidding? What about the famously dry, self deprecating Scottish sense of humour? Alan Cumming and Forbes Masson in The High Life? Limmy? Still Game? All roundly taking the piss out of shortbread Scottishness and engaging with all the negative stereotypes (that we're drunk, proud, we eat too many sweets etc).

What government of any country welcomes criticism of that country? None that I can think of. You speak to voters, however, and you'll generally find, as with your Dutch and German friends, that they are far more sanguine about the failings of their country. Do Dutch politicians, if called arrogant, shrug their shoulders and say, 'yes, we
are'?

"pull me up on it" - I think you are prescribing to
the same school of imagined authority as Alex Salmond on keeping the pound!

No, LMA, I just don't like bigotry when I see it. Same way I felt disgusted when, on a celebratory and supportive thread about Glasgow after the Clutha accident, you popped up to say, apropos of nothing, what a dump Aberdeen is. Relevant? No. Compassionate, given the circumstances? Definitely not.

I haven't forgotten that because I found it so odd. It's like whenever a thread about Scotland appears, your 'time to put the boot in' radar goes off, regardless of subject.

Actually perhaps I am wrong. Let us hope you are right and he does disappear in 2016 leaving someone else to clean up the almighty mess he has/will create if independence does go through. Although let's not forget he's been voted in consistently for the last decade or more so someone out there seems to like him.

I would be sad if Scotland left. It's still home for me and i might even be back in time to vote. But people have to decide what feels right for their country and it is a worry that a man like that will still be at the helm to navigate what is incredibly complex and delicate a scenario. Based on my past knowledge and reading the debates on this my opinion has gone down even more. Independent or not I do not wish to see Scotland struggle.

Sorry op yanbu I meant to say in reference to your original post!

All those stating that Scotland didn't vote for Cameron and the Tory government in Westminster and it's unfair that Scotland should be governed by them would do well to remember that the SNP government were voted into power in 2011 by less than half of the votes cast (45%). So even if Scotland does away with Westminster rule, Scotland will still be governed by a party that the majority of Scots did note vote for.

And at the Dutch comments. On certain subjects they take criticism incredibly badly and can be incredibly intolerant

Far more people are unlike the Scots than are like them

Yes please tell me what Im "like"

I think salmond and co, and our views of them are relevant to an extent. Whilst they won't be governing in perpetuity a yes vote would mean that they would have the authority to negotiate a separation agreement which would shape our country for a very long time. so if you think they are daft eejits with a lack of solid plans then that is relevant imo.

Livingzuid: genuinely at your complaint about Salmond/SNP wasting millions on the "monstrosity" of the Scottish Parliament building. They weren't in power then - it was a Labour/Libdem coalition.

I remember being very disappointed at Donald Dewar (a politician I actually respected) when he stated that they'd done an analysis and that Glasgow would make more sense for a variety of reasons as a location for the Scottish Parliament but that they were still going to go ahead with Edinburgh I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist of what he said.

I explained that I was living in Belgium at the time of the Clutha Bar tragedy, I am not Scottish - what possible meaningful comment was I to give? I don't believe in fake internet sentiment

Quite, LMA, quite! If you had nothing to contribute then why post something nasty? Just for the sake of it? Thoroughly bizarre. And no, I'm not following you around the internet - I just found it hard to forget your crassness at a time when many Glaswegian people were worried and sad.

Or do you just follow me around the internet because you have a deep set racism against anyone who is not entirely Scottish or who does not adopt a fervent Scottishness when movingthere?

Where have I expressed racist views? Where have I said I believe in 'fervent Scottishness'? I'm not a nationalist, I'm undecided vis-a-vis independence. Hell, I didn't even have kits or a ceilidh at my wedding because I'm not into those things!

As stated above, I'm not asking you not to criticise Scotland. I condemning you for making strange, quasi-colonialist statements about the general inferiority of a country, speculative assumptions about the levels of education among its inhabitants and how well they have travelled.

Take a look back at the superior, 'Othering' attitude you adopt when talking about the Scottish people. Sensible criticism based on empirical data and your own experience - fine. Creepily 'Othering,' racial stereotyping - not so good in my book.

You, my dear, YOU are the racist.

And maybe you could answer Electryone's question?
*

Agreed I see racism and stereotyping from one side here and it's not profondo.

I don't think it's racist to say you've experienced certain attitudes in Scotland, from Scottish people and that you find these attitudes worrying. Saying that is not condemning all Scots and I don't think anyone has said that, in fact most of us who have written about these attitudes have been at pains to point out it is NOT all Scots we are talking about.

Reacting to such observations by taking offence on behalf of all Scots and crying racism is not very helpful. It does make it look as if daring to criticise certain nationalistic motives will be stamped upon, and that too is worrying.

As an English person, I'm not generally used to being the victim of racism and "go home" messages. Especially as a middle-class, white English person it's deeply ingrained in me that it's me who is the oppressor – I have a strong sense of England's historical colonial weight-throwing and, in some circles, nationalist tendencies, which I am ashamed of, and do not attempt to deny.

When I then feel that I am on the receiving end of basic racial hatred and see a movement for independence that does include some worryingly short-sighted, breast-beating jingoist-type nationalism, I can't help thinking about what that could mean. That I might actually be forced to "go home" (even though Scots are free to roam the world, as they rightly should be) by that kind of pressure and being made to feel uncomfortable where I have lived for the past 18 years. That if people with those kinds of views gain more power and/or sense of self-righteousness, then it will not be good news for other incomers/"guests" in scotland. That if Scottish independence does mean cutting loose from both UK and EU legal protections and restraints – for example certain Human Rights legislation – then things might get a bit unpleasant.

Nationalism is a funny thing. When it's David wanting independence from Goliath, David is likely to get the cheers. Hooray, little Iceland getting independence from Denmark, little Estonia getting independence from Russia. But nationalism has unpleasant side too because it can be about promoting your nationhood above others, and above the individual.

Scotland is led by the Scottish National Party, the SNP. Remember there is also a BNP, and remember what they stand for. That is NOT to say they are the same - but there are some elements of nationalism which can lead down worrying roads, and it's not a racist crime to worry about that.

Also, while I find those particular attitudes worrying, I am aware that Scots in general aren't all like that. For example, I recently read a news story saying when polled, Scots are more open to immigration than the rest of the UK. And I think the referendum vote will be no, precisely because of the sensible, non-jingoistic, open-minded attitudes of many Scots.

BUT the OP on this thread was about Salmond and the SNP and that is why issues of nationalism have been raised and discussed.

I don't think it's racist to say you've experienced certain attitudes in Scotland, from Scottish people and that you find these attitudes worrying

Absolutely, Listen. As a Scot, I find racist attitudes to the English (and anyone else) very worrying indeed. And I am really sorry and angry that you've experienced this. Describing your experience is not a racist act at all.

But I do consider suggesting that a country employs widespread indoctrination, that its people are as a rule poorly travelled and poorly educated, without any data to back this up, very much in the area of racial stereotyping.

After several previous threads which have been derailed due to offensive & weird posts by a certain poster I no longer read or respond to them.

The comments on the Clutha thread were beyond the pale.

I'm voting no.

Controversial I know, but the majority of those I know voting yes have few qualifications or they are Celtic supporters who hate the union flag etc

Might just be my area though.

I should probably take a leaf out of your book, FannyFifer.

I've just finished my doctorate and have done a lot of research about the language and thought processes of racism and imperialism, and have perhaps found it a little hard to disconnect. Doing so is probably for the best.

Excellent post Listen and one that I empathise with, being English but having lived some years in Scotland.

Nobody should dole out racist abuse, Down, ever. And I'm so sorry you've experienced it. It makes me furious.

Equally, the Scots are not fair game for racial stereotyping, any more than the English. I think we can all agree on that.

I'm very sceptical at the idea Scotland is more open and welcoming to immigrants than the rest of the UK. I don't think Scotland has so far had to put its money where its mouth is.

As for how wonderful a country it is I was born in rural Scotland and have lived in Aberdeen and Glasgow and now live in Edinburgh. I liked Aberdeen , I didn't like Glasgow. Edinburgh is a fantastic place to live(other than London I can't think of anywhere else in the UK I'd rather stay) as for the rest of Scotland, frankly you're welcome to it.

I'm not convinced we're more "open" either - I think amongst migrants there is a huge variation in how how they are treated IME. I work in financial services (in Edinburgh too Caitlin), and there are very large numbers of migrants from a huge number of places who are generally treated pretty equally. But on the flip side we've used a lovely polish painter (stereotypical I know ) who says he has encountered a fair amount of abuse. I used to live in a pretty rough council estate, and foreigners generally got a lot of agro.

I love Scotland overall, but I'm not blind to its flaws - it's not some sort of tartan and shortbread utopia!

Profondo I've just finished my doctorate and have done a lot of research about the language and thought processes of racism and imperialism, and have perhaps found it a little hard to disconnect. Doing so is probably for the best

Well I'm a lawyer, and I suggest you acquaint yourself with the legal definition of racism in the Race Relations Act 1976, specifically with reference to direct and indirect discrimination. Heres a clue - it isn't something "ProfondoRosso" or "FannyFifer" make up because you can't cope with anyone who challenges your little nationalistic hegemony.

I also suggest you look through some recent posts I have made which probably indicate I am one of the least racist people on here. e.g. Indian call centres thread.

FannyFifer The comments on the Clutha thread were beyond the pale

Oh come on. You are well known on here for suggestively making these short statements to try and make something out its not and then providing no further information. I assume you are referring to the nth page on the Clutha thread where I responded to the poster who said that it was mainly the people she had a problem with in Aberdeen, rather than the place itself. Not actually any comments about the Clutha bar tragedy, as you would very much like to infer.

How immoral of you - using a tragedy like that to score points on an internet forum. However, I suppose that you and *Profondo", being in Scotland at the time, immediately rushed to the scene and helped out as much as you both could. Or did you just make statements on an internet forum to pretend there is something holier than thou about the pair of you?

Congratulations for turning this thread into a personal attack on a poster who has the temerity to say something you don't like. This seems to be very typical of independence supporters. There is a very good reason that opinion polls show that working women are far less likely to support independence than any other group in Scotland, and you have provided many reasons why this is so.

Profondo the Scots are not fair game for racial stereotyping, any more than the English. I think we can all agree on that

Please therefore tell me why you support a campaign for independence based on a different national identity from the rest of the UK, live in a country governed by a party called "the Scottish Nationalist Party" and why its leader is constantly bleating on about the Scots having more in common with the Scandinavians than the rest of the UK, instead of less successful countries like Latvia and Estonia?

and how you work your immoral way from that to "racial stereotyping" to anyone who dares to speak out about fed up with constantly hearing the sort of bigoted rubbish that is sprouted by nationalist and even non-nationalists in this so-called campaign.

I don't find you a genuine person at all.