To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

LessMissAbs I'm an educated working woman, I am not pro independence. But I find your insistence that Scots are all of a particular type quite strange. Even within Edinburgh, I see enormous variances between communities that mean I could not identify what the culture of Edinburgh is, let alone Scotland as a whole. Yes there are some historical (and largely touristy!) stereotypes of bagpipes etc but IMO and IME they are not in any way a part of the day to day life of the average Scot.

Your comment about the average scot not being interested in Shetland was frankly bizarre. You're very keen to portray scots in general as an insular people with little experience or knowledge of anything beyond their own back door. There are undeniably people like that. But there are also many (and I would probably say more) who are the exact opposite.

I don't agree with national stereotyping - whether that's Scotland, England or anywhere else.

Would just like to point out that it's the Scottish National Party, not Nationalist. Significant difference.

Mea culpa. Freudian slip.

I'm not sure what difference it makes. They are referred to and call themselves nationalists.

YANBU, OP.

StatisticallyChallenged I wasn't aware that I had stereotyped all Scots. I don't think I could be bothered tbh. I have described some experiences here that seemed to me unusual. I did in fact say it was the more open minded well educated type of Scot that is likely to ensure a No vote a few pages back. But my opinion is irrelevant, that is what a referendum is for.

It is however true to say that Shetland is ignored by the average Scot. Shetland Islands Council wrote to the Scottish Parliament to ask whether increased devolution would be included as an Independence manifesto promise, and was ignored. However it is also true to say that my Shetland relatives used to describe the Scots as "those foreign Southern **", I was too young to recall if this was entirely in jest. And how much money is put into resurrecting Norn, the Norwegian dialect spoken in Scotland until recent times, compared to the fashionable obsession with Gaelic? Shetland is nearer Bergen in Norway than Edinburgh!

One thing I am heartily sick off is constantly being put on some kind of mock trial for being deemed to be not Scottish enough, or anti-Scottish. That's a huge chip on some posters's shoulders, to claim that they are the subject of racism which doesn't meet the definition in any legislation, while being a majority in their own country. They do people who genuinely do suffer racism a great disservice.

And the student wing is called the Federation of Student Nationalists.

So not such a significant difference after all.

Well this thread has taken a very disturbing and depressing turn for the worse. The potential to increase immigration is actually one of the positives of the 'yes' campaign I feel. We have very different immigration requirements to the rest of the UK, we have a shrinking population and we need to attract both skilled and unskilled workers. I don't see this being addressed by a UK government because of the backlash from voters where the immigration requirements are very different and viewed (by many) as already being too relaxed.

I think it would be a very interesting and refreshing time in politics if independence happens. I would envisage SNP breaking down into disparate groups without a common goal to bond them. I think the Greens would be the first party to make a big impact as they are established, prepared and not tainted by any historical images (real or imagined) like Scottish Labour or Scottish tories will be. Then I think we'd see new groupings coming to the fore... who knows.

Salmond was clever to go hell-for-leather for an independence vote squeezed in during the time when we have the most hated Westminster government for decades. Anything that detaches Scotland from that rule is obviously tempting. If he had tried this five years ago he would have got nowhere. Shame that they couldn't come up with a devo-max compromise.

The other three nations should be in on this vote.
.

I don't understand why an iScotland would have more immigrants than Scotland currently does. At present it has considerably less than other areas of the UK, most notably the evil, wicked London, or indeed England overall.

Relaxing its visa requirements isn't going to make any difference if not many people want to go there.

By comparison with that southern Babylon, Scotland is an ethnically pure nation state.

Mind you, my experience in Scotland was that people were studiously non-racist for the most part. It was a point in which people liked to distinguish their country from that other place south of the border. I'm sure anyone can see the irony of this.

Could I ask a question if Salmond refuses to take debt over currency argument, would the UK be able to refuse payment of state pensions, paid for by NI contributions?

Please therefore tell me why you support a campaign for independence based on a different national identity from the rest of the UK, live in a country governed by a party called "the Scottish Nationalist Party"

Where did I say I was in favour of independence?
Where did anyone say you were not 'Scottish' enough? You are the one who makes generalisations based on nationality, nobody else.

Wow. Just wow. If you need help understanding why racial stereotyping isn't ok, I suggest you go and read some Spivak or Bhabha, who discuss it more eloquently than I could.

LesMissAbbs does have a point about the "not being Scottish" enough issue. My rabidly nationalistic brother frequently accused me of not being proud of being Scottish to which my reply was "you're right I'm not, it's a ridiculous thing to be proud of"

It seems to have waned a bit now but at the start of the campaign the nationalist response(including from their MPs) to anyone saying it was a bad idea or even asking questions like the question above re pensions was "you're doing Scotland down"

Could I ask a question if Salmond refuses to take debt over currency argument, would the UK be able to refuse payment of state pensions, paid for by NI contributions?

Regardless of the currency argument the Scottish government will pay state pensions for Scottish residents following independence based on the number of years of NI credits built up in the UK. Remember that, unlike personal pensions, your NI contributions don't build up a pot of money to pay your pension. Your pension is paid out of current taxation.

It's good to hear the views from those who live in Scotland, and I can clearly see that opinion is divided among some posters!

Although I have only travelled to Scotland a handful of times, as an English person I certainly noticed nothing obviously different in the manner, culture or disposition of the Scottish people I came into contact with. Much like back in England, the vast majority were nice, decent people.

When I started this thread it wasn't to ask if Independence was fundamentally right or wrong, but to try and work out why anyone would vote for something that was so clearly not properly thought through. I like Scotland, I don't want them to f**k up their country based on false promises from the man at the top.

If AS came out next week with properly thought through full and honest answers to everyone's questions, then perhaps he might be able to convince more people. If I had the vote, then currently he wouldn't have convinced me to vote yes.

Caitlin, LMA would be absolutely correct to point out that that type of behaviour does happen and that many of us, myself included, find it unpalatable.

LMA is not justified, however, in defining that kind of behaviour as a general national characteristic. Or accusing people of having nationalist agendas when they've stated that they are not SNP voters, and remain undecided re: independence.

ProfoundlyRed Where did I say I was in favour of independence? Where did anyone say you were not 'Scottish' enough? You are the one who makes generalisations based on nationality, nobody else

Good point. You have been very careful to make no meaningful or useful comments on anything, and have concentrated on attacking posters who challenge you in a very personal manner.

Wow. Just wow. If you need help understanding why racial stereotyping isn't ok, I suggest you go and read some Spivak or Bhabha, who discuss it more eloquently than I could

What is it that you are actually trying to say?

Do you have anything interesting to contribute on the currency issue, the EU membership issue or even the Scots becoming more like Scandinavia issue, constantly espoused by the Scottish First Minister and the dropping of the Irish exemplar since its recession? Or are you of the belief that the Scots have no ancestors and no national identity? In which case, why is there a case for independence from the rest of the UK at all?

What do you think about my Polish friend being sent abusive pms because he put on his FB that he was so uncomfortable remaining in Scotland because of all this talk about independence and nationalism he was moving to England? He got comments along the lines of "Go back to where you came from, you *Polish scum". Someone on this post earlier tried to tell me this was xenophobia, not racism. Where were you, self appointed guardian of all things race-related, when I mentioned this? Or is racism to you only a makey up thing that a majority in their own country can somewhat implausibly complain of to support their own fervent beliefs when it suits them?

Should say it's my brother-in-law who is rabid not my sane brother.

Read about a new group set up "Academics for yes" but I really don't understand, the Scottish are all stupid and uneducated, particularly the ones voting Yes.
How on earth could there possibly be 60 academics in Scotland in the first place. Most strange, I'm sure it must be a case of groupthink, it's the only explanation, brainwashing by Salmond.
www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/professors-united-in-academics-for-yes.23449606?_=c7332976a95835182f8b2c8a2742e00c52bc65ea

No, LMA, I'm not a cybernat. I'm not any kind of 'nat,' in fact. I just don't like unpleasant, generalising descriptions of the Scottish people, or any other people.

Yes, the Scots can be described as having an overarching national image, which includes both good and bad things. But saying they are all ill-educated and ill-travelled, not to mention subscribing to KGB/Stasi-esque totalitarianism is just xenophobic. I hope you never had the misfortune of living under the KGB or the Stasi. I know people who did. They wouldn't find your comparison of the hell they endured to Scotland (where they can live, speak, work and vote as they wish) very tasteful.

And well done on translating my username. "Profondo Rosso" is nothing to do with my politics. It's a Dario Argento film.

If I hadn't seen LesMissAbs elsewhere on MN, I might start to think that she was a troll and/or a so-called Cybernat as her racist generalisations and abuse are the sort of thing that might convert "Don't Knows" to "Yes". Especially as she comes on here to stir things up yet doesn't even have a vote

For the record, amongst my friends and family (all of whom are well travelled and well educated), I can think of a number of committed "Yes" voters eg: my father, retired radiologist, (former South African who also lived 2 years in NZ before coming back to Scotland as he didn't agree with the politics there), 2 lawyers, one sales director with a major telco, 2 MA (Hons) graduates of St Andrews currently involved in inward investment projects, one retired corporate banker and one director of a major educational organisation; amongst the "Don't Knows/Not Saying" there is a SAHM former nurse, one director of a major civil engineering company currently on secondment in Hong Kong, one former Project Manager currently "working" as a carer for her dh and 2 GPS; and the "No" voters are a corporate banker, a catering manager, an admin officer in a primary school and a member of the landed gentry.

If I were to generalise (which I can't because it would just be anecdotal based on the filter of my friendships), then the average educational attainment and how well travelled they are is higher amongst the Yes and Don't Know voters than the committed No voters.

I thought your username was to do with a love of red wine.

If there is a 'yes' vote, I can't help but wonder how the Scots will feel when their taxes rise to pay for

their parliament
free prescriptions and
free care for the elderly in nursing homes.

I imagine the bill will be rather expensive.

We already pay for those things, tb, and free tertiary education too. Good, innit?