To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

I find the brainwashing the SNP is trying to do by constantly comparing Scotland to Scandinavia (it is not part of Scandinavia geographically and is ethnically more Celtic) racist

And this doesn't demonstrate similar prejudice, LessMissAbs?

Actually, I do suspect the reason Latvia isn't mentioned is that (a) many of the SNP supporters haven't travelled that much outside Scotland and (b) aren't that well read/have inquisitive minds

I'm not an SNP supporter myself, but you have proved many times your obsessive dislike of Scotland and the Scottish people.

Ill-travelled, jobs-for-the-boys, pushing for a 'totalitarian' heedrum hodrum state where well-educated women such as you and me will be forever held down and prevented from advancing their careers, close-minded, public sector loving lazy gits.

Have I missed anything?

I think you have a point about the travelled thing.

I would say that comparing yourself to Sweden rather than Latvia is more of a kind of snobbery rather than a ill-travelled/educated thing though.

In the minds of Scots and English do we identify and aspire to be like our Scandinavian friends or do we aspire to be like a former Soviet state? Its about our perceptions of other nations and what we view to be 'good' or 'bad' / 'rich' or 'poor'.

We wouldn't view a comparison with a former Eastern Block country as a particularly favourable comparison on the whole - north OR south of the border. Even if we were well travelled and educated and had inquisitive minds. Because its about aspirations.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26245684

Interesting move - allowing Scotland to manage its own borrowing... whilst at the same time making a point that Scotland's credit rating will be worse than using the UK's credit rating.

I saw that earlier RedToothBrush. I love how the SNP are palming it off as some inconsequential concession that means nothing.

I honestly just don't see what we would gain from independence.

yes - its a very clever move.

It is quite normal for small countries to have worse credit ratings for that reason alone. For example, NZ has a worse credit rating than the UK despite its debt-to-GDP ratio being very low and far, far lower than the UK.

Size is security.

Alex Salmond is in the same dream world as Alastair Mcleod

The question though is when their join the E. U, are they going to show Europe a brand of politics that they could never know.

Altogether Now WERE ON THE MARCH WITH ALEX'S ARMY AND WE REALLY SHAKE EM UP WHEN WE JOIN THE E.U COS SCOTLANDS THE GREATEST COUNTRY......

What right have any of you to claim that SNP supporters are generally not well travelled or possessed of inquiring minds. How on earth would you know? Do you have access to some kind of data?

I'm not a nationalist and dislike nationalism as a rule, but some big assumptions are being made here.

Gosh, the abusive tribalism of some posters is depressing.

I wish the UK (including Scotland) would become a proper federal state, like Germany.

Indeed, Angela. It puts some posters in rather an unpleasant light.

I don't think name calling/belittling others does either side much good tbh (although politicians...meh they're almost fair game ;) )

If I look at the people I know personally, and the split between those who are "pro" and those who are "anti" then based on the people I know I do see a split along the lines of level of education/intellect with the "anti" generally having a more carefully considered viewpoint and able to debate the subject and the "pro" arguments being...poorly though out, anti-english and lacking in substance.

But, I would never attempt to extrapolate this to the entire population as there could be numerous reasons for the difference in viewpoint amongst those I know.

I can't comment on the demographics of the pro -voters as I know so few of them.

Brother in law, whom I have disliked for many years, is very well off and has travelled extensively in Europe and I think lived in Brazil for a while has been a rabid nationalist for years. He's not stupid by any means although has a chip on his shoulder about many things (English people, posh English people, posh Scottish people, farmers, people with degrees from proper universities, lawyers-I tick several boxes)

The only other person I know works in the NHS in a specialised sector and has a PhD from Edinburgh although is not a medical doctor. Her views, I think, are skewed by the fact she has no family here but many diaspora connections in Canada and is very into Celticy/Gaelicy stuff.

Otherwise if it's going to be decided on tribal lines my "tribe" is against it.

Nothing Eck or anyone in the Yes campaign say will change my mind.

I believe in an independent Scotland. Scotland is perfectly capable of handling its own affairs. It doesn't matter to me what currency we end up using or if we are part of Europe or not. What matters to me is that my country is run by politicians that have been elected by my country. David Cameron was not elected by Scotland. He couldn't even come to Scotland to argue the case for a no vote! An independent Scotland is a big leap in the dark but as far as I'm concerned it is a risk I am happy to take because the option of getting run into the ground and robbed of resources by a tory government is not very appealing!

I couldn't possibly describe all the Yes or No people I know because I know so many on both sides, and many undecided. I couldn't say I know any saltire-waving blowhards on the Yes side any more than I could say I know Union Jack waving grunters with framed pictures of the queen on the No side.

I guess that comes from associating with smart, open-minded people, not close-minded eejits!

Bravo Profondo for having such an upstanding group of associates...sometimes the people you "associate with" aren't entirely voluntary though!

Ninja I just don't get the "we didn't vote for them" argument. One person, one vote - just the same as everyone south of the border! There are chunks of England which largely voted for different parties (i.e. most of the West Midlands voted labour.) How far do you take the "we didn't vote for them" argument? Orkney and shetland voted LIb Dem in the last Scottish Election - they didn't vote to be ruled by the SNP. Should they be independent? How small do you go just so you "get who you voted for"

Thank you, Statistically, but I'm actually not that picky!

I think my experience proves, at least, that fundy pigheadedness on either side is not actually the norm in Scotland, regardless of what some would suggest.

Ha you should see some of the nonsense popping up on my Facebook feed...I do find it hard to take people seriously when they share an "article" (blog posts) where the reasons for voting Yes include "we've got some oil, nae idea how much though", "it doesn't matter if you like Alex" and "the No campaign are negative" with comments such as "Booooom! Get voting yes"

Made the mistake of getting into a debate with one the other night who was trying to make themselves look smart by copying and pasting extracts from articles which they didn't understand. It was fun

ninjasausage's post about why she is voting yes for me is an excellent reason for voting no. Blind leaps of faith for no good reason other than a hatred of a Tories coupled with no thought about how it's going to work.

Profondo you are very prescriptive about what parameters you would like posters to post upon. Where do you gain your perceived authority from on this? You are very scathing about anyone who has the temerity to comment on Scotland or "Scottishness" other than in the glowing, arse-licking terms that seem to be currently in vogue amongst some circles there.

I 1/4 Scottish (from Shetland) 1/4 English and 1/2 Dutch. I therefore cannot help but remark on aspects of a small country of 5 1/2 million people that I find unusual. Far more people are unlike the Scots than are like them. I find the great upset caused by anyone criticising Scotland or the Scottish baffling; most nationalities do that. The Dutch for instance will generally admit they are arrogant and outspoken. At times I feel like a foreigner in a foreign country in Scotland, and I've been brought up to speak out, not to tow some accepted line of indoctrinated thought. I keep using the word "indoctrination" for a reason.

btw The Netherlands and Belgium are very good examples of successful small countries. But knowing Dutch culture very well, I would say that Scotland at present lacks a lot of the attributes that would make an independent country a very happy place for the majority of the population.

Caitlin17 ninjasausage's post about why she is voting yes for me is an excellent reason for voting no. Blind leaps of faith for no good reason other than a hatred of a Tories coupled with no thought about how it's going to work

Perhaps an independent Scotland could tackle this by becoming the first country in the world to make political discrimination and/or harassment a civil or even criminal wrong?

LessMissAbs, criticise Scotland as much as you like. But do it sensibly and constructively. All you ever seem to pull out are strange opinions on the general denseness, insularity and close mindedness of the Scottish people, as if quoted from some imperialist ethnographic study. It's extremely distasteful.

I'm no nationalist or Salmond fan but I hate to see a perfectly good, cultured, interesting country being constantly rubbished. It just happens to be my country of birth, but if you were so unpleasant about any other country on such a regular basis I'd pull you up on that too.

Gosh, so prescriptive and strict Profondo. Please don't tell me what to do. For your own sake. Because I can assure you that I certainly don't have much respect for much of what you say.

"pull me up on it" - I think you are prescribing to the same school of imagined authority as Alex Salmond on keeping the pound!

I see absolutely nothing wrong and everything right with criticism of a country and pointing out faults. As I say, the Dutch do it, the Germans do it (my German friends say that their schools were very strong on the mistakes of the past and faults in the national character so as to avoid past mistakes), I am sure most other nationalities do it, so why the Scots should claim to be exempt I do not know.

The Scotland debate is so interesting. I confess to only having read about half the thread but still the same points always arise for me. I'm always curious to know realistically what happens with passports as I have mine courtesy of my Scottish dad!

• it's not independence if you still are reliant on a currency from a different nation. Be independent by all means but find your own currency solution. You will be grateful for it in the long run as you will have full financial control. The Eurozone is not all it is cracked up to be, fan though I am of the European. I witness first hand how much the ECB and Brussels can crush an individual nation financially whilst letting others such as its financiers Germany get away with all sorts. It's not fun being the little guy.

• You hear a lot people saying 'I'm voting for independence not Alex Salmond'. Well actually you are voting for him really. Do you honestly think after his years in power he's going to let that slip away from him so easily? You've voted for him all these years after all, why will that suddenly change? He sure as hell isn't the right man to be leading on independence and a newly independent Scotland but I don't see him disappearing into the sunset any time soon.

• Alex Salmond is a nasty, corrupt and vile politician (OK they all are but he's at the top) who at the moment sounds like a 5 year old who has had all his toys taken away. He has no backup plans on some of the most fundamental policies crucial to independence.

And for people using analogies such as Belgium and Luxembourg or Crown protectorates they simply aren't comparable situations when talking about a currency union with one of the largest economies in the EU. Ireland was also 100 or so years ago things are a bit different now.

Really fascinating. The people in Scotland have to decide themselves but I would be leery of voting just to get away from Cameron. The UK should have moved to a federal structure like Germany or the US years ago. I hope they stick around :)

We are not voting for or against Alex. That is the biggest bollox out there; apart from anything else, in the Scottish gvt elections post indyref (due May 2016) there is a more than fair-to-middling chance Alex will retire from politics, whichever way the referendum goes. His wife Moira is a good bit older than him and he wants to spend her declining years with her. Nicola will become SNP party leader, and possibly the first FM of an indy Scotland.

Please provide evidence that he is "nasty, corrupt and vile", particularly the middle libel.

The referendum - which not a party-political issue, nor is it an election - is about Scotland becoming an independent country. Forever, as we are reminded.

It is not about whether you like Alex, or Call-Me-Dave, or any other current politician.

The question is quite simply, would we prefer to be governed by a gvt we actually elect, or would we prefer rUK (effectively, a few swing constituencies in England) to make those decisions for us?

I know which I prefer.

PS, if you currently have a British passport, you'll be allowed to keep it. Always assuming rUk is as sensible as Alex & co.

YA stillNBU.

Heard him on the radio claiming that telling us there will be no currency union is driving Scots to the yes vote, as we don't like to be told what to do.

So everything will be ok then? Cheers Eck.