To wonder why women continue to bash each other over the SAHM/WOHP thing

[happyyonisleepyyoni]

I'm sick of hearing women justify their own life choices by bitching about others. It's nasty and low.

Can't we give each other the benefit of the doubt and accept that in the vast majority of cases, people do what they think is best for their families-whether that means staying at home or working. There is no moral right or wrong here.

The End!

[wordfactory]

I can't see how it;'s remotely offensive to say it would be great if both parents could take an active part in caring fopr their children and both parents could take an active part in earning cash and followinbg their careers.

The idea that the Dad wants to play a very limited role in child care and running the home and that the Mum should do it all isn't very forward thinking.

I mean sure, a lot of us end up that way due to the nature of emploment in the UK and the economics of childcare...but it surely can't be seen as a perfect state of affairs for the Mum or indeed the Dad.

[noddyholder]

My ds is 19 now but when he was little I was part of a large group of parents/kids were about two thirds were freelance or worked from home. The ones who were around more helped out those who worked out of the home and no one ever complained or judged.

[superstarheartbreaker]

Well I work in a stressful job and then I am stressed when with dd too. I love my work but I hate mornings and the constant cajoling to get her ready for school so that I am not late. At least I have holidays with her but I wouldn't say I am living the dream!

[TheBookofRuth]

You're a very modern couple? What does that even mean? What are you, the Jetsons?!

[oliviaoctopus]

From april 2015 you can give your maternity leave to your dh. Its a great idea and such a shame you cant do it now. So restrictive for womens careers at present.

[jellybeans]

There are also concerns about men not stepping up in family life in Sweden, such as it usually being mothers who take time off when a child is off sick. This leading to lower income and pension.

[Abstractingplay]

thebook you sound rather sensitive and insecure about your choices if you found my post offensive.

It was mentioned on another thread that women not working at all and solely looking after their dc at home is a concept that exists in a narrow socio-economic framework. In the 50ies mothers were absolutely expected to stay at home. Watch Mad Men to see a parody of those dark ages times. Today in the UK there is a move backwards and women increasingly aspire to quit their jobs and stay at home if their dpi earns enough. But I believe that will indeed change. With the high tuition fees it won't make sense for women to study and quit their careers after a few years to stay at home. That surely would be a waste.

I actually wonder how that works. If someone's has a student loan and becomes a sahm, do they cease to pay back the loan or does their dh pay it off.

[oliviaoctopus]

bookofruth - as in dh is doing my maternity leave and Im back at work at 2 weeks, he does 50/50, he takes sick days for the kids etc. Being a working mum or dad has no difference in our house.

[wordfactory]

Also me now actively want to be part of the day to day upbringing of their DC.

Surely that's a terribly good thing?

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

going back to the OP: because society and the media constantly comment on women's parental choices while fathers are not held up to the same level of criticism unless they contribute little/nothing to their children's upbringing.

women are examined whatever choice they make
men have to be deadbeat dads to get the same level of examination. otherwise they seem to get praise.

[waltermittymissus]

Abstract did you mean to say attractive, or what that a typo?

[noddyholder]

The Jetsons pmsl Brilliant!

[ThinkAboutItTomorrow]

I think it's an important debate OP. WHY do we feel driven to criticise each other? Surely it is guilt - the insidious and underlying guilt that women feel about most of their choices? (e.g. am I being a slut or am I being a tease?) I don't believe women are physiologically liable to feel more guilty than men but we sure as hell get psychologically programmed to feel more guilty.
That this gets turned around on people who are similarly struggling with their choices and becomes a feeding frenzy of guilt instead of being turned back on the people who are making us feel this. It's divide and rule.

We do need to talk about this so we can be conscious it is happening and equally conscious that we don't want to let it keep happening. To free people to make guilt free choices. You know, like the men types do.

I have skipped a couple of pages as the thread was moving too fast for me. Hope this hasn't been said too much.

[Philoslothy]

I have been on just about every side of this fence, have had to rush back to work after a very short maternity leave , have taken years, have been a working mother who has travelled abroad leaving the children behind and now a working mother who chose a career to have to have the odd early finish and the holidays at home with the children.

Nobody in RL ( to my face ) has ever judged me and to be honest they tend to think that my reasons are far more noble and my parenting more thoughtful than the reality.

[LadyInDisguise]

The reason why so many women have a go at each other us because we always feel out of place. Society tells us at the same time that only mums can look after their dcs well, esp when they are little (note dads can't). And at the same time we are suppose to be independent, go to work and not be lazy, because not working IS being lazy.
Whatever our choices we will db seen as failing in some ways.
Again note that this is not the case for Dads who are suppose to be at wirk working hard to provide for their family.

So we end up having to convince ourselves that what we do is the right thing for us. The more unsure we are re our choices, the more we feel we have to prove they are the right ones, to us and to others.
Of course as lots if you have pointed out already there isn't a one fits all answer in reality.... But it's easier to tell the woman next to you that she us doing everything wrong that to try and change society outlook.

[Abstractingplay]

"fail to see how wanting to care for my own child makes me "backward" or "outdated","

Women who work also care for their own children just not all day long, everyday.

I really, really don't get it and think it is such an ignorant mindset to assume that families where both parents work (p/t, f/t whatever) present a less nurturing, positive and enabling environment.

It depends on parents are happy in their own skin and able to deal with their lifestyle ( I.e. Are not too stressed out all the time).

If both partners work, dad can allow himself not work himself into the grave and actually participate in the upbringing of his children.

Why should it be mainly women who raise kids? After the initial exclusive breast feeding period, mums are not necessarily the sole best person to care for the dc any longer.

[TwittyMcTwitterson]

abstractingplay; re student loans, that is an interesting question! I wont have to pay back my loan until i have earnt a certain amount for two years, thanks to mat leave and childcare vouchers ive been under so if i stayed under and then quit i would never have to pay it back. if i started to pay it back i don't know. its not DHs debt so he shoudnt have to pay it back...

[encyclogirl]

Everyone has an opinion on this topic it seems.

Dh told MIL yesterday that our plan was for me to stop WOH in 3 years time (I will at that point have worked for 30 years with two short Mat leaves – total 15 weeks off). Dd will be 20, has SN and will need me to be around for her as she comes out of education.

This morning MIL rang me at work and berated me about this. She was seriously pissed off that I was planning to ‘put so much pressure to earn all the money’ on dh. Her own dd has been SAH since dn was born 19 years ago btw.

I tried to care about her opinion, really I did ;)

[wordfactory]

encyclogril what on earth does the silly person expect you to do with your DD?

Has she a magic solution?

[TheBookofRuth]

I minored in Women's Studies at university Abstract, so please don't tell me to watch a TV show to find out how life used to be for women. I found your comment that wanting to provide child care for your child yourself backwards offensive, I stand by that.

I will (and have) fight for any woman's right to return to work after having children. I will also fight for the right to stay at home with your children - for both parents.

I'm not in the least bit insecure about my choices, btw. I love my life - I get to spend my days having adventures with my favourite person in the entire world, why wouldn't I?

[wordfactory]

So TheBook I'm assuming your DP actively did not seek to spend his days adventuring?

[TheBookofRuth]

No, as I said earlier we made the choice that works best for us as a partnership. He adores DD and is a great and active father but - as many people don't - he doesn't have the right temperament to want to be with her all day every day.

[dietcokeandwine]

Olivia sorry going back a bit in terms of posts -I have been off line for a while. It entirely makes sense that you are able to have your kids with you full time, because you work in childcare. Total sense. Of course you can.

But...errr....no-not an HR job. Update a policy, on my laptop at home, maybe. Write some employee documentation, maybe. Talk to a line manager on the phone whilst kids watch tv, perhaps.

But other parts of the job. Like conduct a disciplinary meeting? Present figures to the board of directors in a management meeting? Do a day's worth of recruitment interviews? Sit down and speak to an employee who is distressed at being made redundant? For a company that is not childcare related in what it does? Honestly, you couldn't. Not with a 4 year old and baby in tow. You couldn't. You would not be allowed to.

Are you honestly suggesting that doctors should have their toddlers in the consulting room with them, rather than use child care?

Or that a receptionist sticks her 1 year old behind the desk whilst she gets on with greeting visitors?

Or that the supermarket worker reads a story to her 2yo whilst scanning someone's shopping?

Of course some jobs are more flexible than others and once children are at preschool/school then it is far more possible to juggle your work around their care. But with a younger child or children in tow-under 2.5 years, say-there are a huge number of jobs where you could not simply 'bring them with you'.

Am I being stupid? Or is the point I'm trying to argue really not obvious?

[Abstractingplay]

waltermittymissus

Not a typo. I travel to Sweden for work now and then. I find Swedish women have away about them that I like and find attractive. They (sweeeeeeeeeping generalization, but my personal 'outsider' impression and feeling) appear confident and independent. I guess it's because their society encourages both sexes to be more equal.

If you look at Swedish children's literature (for example by Astrid Lindgren) the portrayal of girls is not so mucH 'girly' but they female protagonists are feisty and fun. Anyway, I am not an expert on Scandinavian society or literature but get the feeling that women there are more equal to men. I like that. That's all.

[TheBookofRuth]

I'm still breast feeding Abstract, does that make a difference to your mindset? I also tried very, very hard not to use emotive terms like "raising my child myself" because I fully accept that working mothers raise their children too - mine did. That was the only time I said "cares for", instead of "provides childcare for" because I was trying to avoid that particular minefield.

If DH had wanted to stay at home too, we'd have had to come to an arrangement where we both returned to work part-time, shared child care, and adjusted our lifestyle accordingly, but he didn't. I consider myself very lucky on that front, because I love being at home with DD.

And on that note, I should go - DD wants me to blow raspberries for her and watch her marching.