In assuming most men going on holiday alone to Thailand, are going to have sex with prostituted women or men?

[Grennie]

It is estimated that about 1% of Thailand's GDP is earned through sexual exploitation tourism.

In 2003 (the last year for which full figures are available) some 545,000 British residents arrived on visits. If you remove the children, and the British citizens visiting for business or reasons other than a holiday, you arrive at about 489,000—314,000 men and 175,000 women. That is 139,000 more British men than women coming to Thailand for a holiday—a gap of 28 per cent.

In no other international holiday destination, is there such a big difference in the number of women and men travelling there. There is no obvious reason for this apart from prostitution.

The whole thing is many facetted.

You have to deal with attitudes from abroad, but you also have to tackle the problem at home too. You can't just 'crack down on it'. I think given the scale of the industry that you have to consider the economic impact of doing that. As the OP pointed out, it apparently accounts for 1% of the country's GDP. Thats a significant amount. If you get rid of that, what happens? Why are Thais turning to the sex trade as a source of income and what alternatives do they have? If the Thai government was to take the plunge and ban the trade, would it stop? Or would it merely spring up in another country? Would people at risk, be even more at risk?

And I don't think that UK prosecutions will frighten sex tourists off to be honest either I'm afraid. The scale of the industry is just so huge. Trying to prove and prosecute is such a costly and difficult process its sadly not likely to be pursued as much as it should anyway even with the political. The real issue that you have the best chance of tackling is more about how openly foreigners talk about what they are doing and how they think it is acceptable behaviour and how you go about tackling that. The cultural attitudes that drive that may be reflected more within our own country than perhaps we realise.

Also Bangkok has also become a rapidly increasingly popular destination for Chinese tourists. The influx of Chinese tourism has made Bangkok the most visited city by international visitors in the last year. Which starts to beg the sad question of whether this is a problem restricted to Western visitors (particularly given the increasingly problems of gender imbalance). Especially if we accept the idea above that Thailand's USP is its sex trade.

Whilst it might be a western issue that needs to be tackled, maybe its also a rich versus poor issue and thats something we also need to face up to.

Holly, I don't think you understand what "sexism" means. I can see that you want to defend the reputation of male tourists to Thailand, but accusing posters of sexism because they are suggesting that men are more likely to be using prostitutes than women is just daft. Statistically, men are far, far more likely to use prostitutes than women. Being aware of statistical reality does not make me, or any of the other posters you disagree with, sexist.

i agree the sex industry in thailand is like no other i have seen it is truly shocking vietnam too has a big problem

bangkok makes amsterdam look like a village tea party

whereever i went in thailand there was sex on offer (for men and sometimes towards myself) and that was staying in the travellers areas but there is so much to see it is just always around some places far more obvious than others

it is so sad i love thailand it is my favourite country i have been too and i would love to take ds but hate this side to it

I agree, Red, it's a wealth gap problem of course. I'm uncomfortable saying "Western men" for a number of reasons. Since the vast majority of the men I saw were British and European, it's an easy shorthand. But you're right, as any nation gets further to the rich side of that wealth gap, the more likely it is to exploit the other side.

Somebody made an interesting point upthread, that men from countries with better gender equality tend to engage in less sex tourism. This ties in with my personal experience ... I've seen a lot of Brits, Germans and Americans buying sex services, but few Scandinavians.

If thats true Garlic thats why I think its deeply unhelpful to make sweeping statements that 'most men who travel alone to Thailand' indulge in the sex industry, if there is a difference between different groups of men - whether that be in terms of age, nationality or anything else.

I do not believe for one second that 'men' are all the same and are driven by the temptation of sex and are incapable of saying no. I think thats a dangerous thing to say in the sense that it suggests that men are somehow not responsible for their actions as its a primitive animalistic drive.

If men in older age groups, for example, are more likely to indulge then maybe that says a few things - not just that they want 'young flesh' but also because sex in their age group is difficult to come by for whatever reason or perhaps a generational difference in attitude to women.

I think you need to really pinpoint who and why.

I don't think a man with a healthy sense of equality would go to Thailand alone or in an all-male group, Red. So I still agree with Grennie's title :)

I think you need to really pinpoint who and why.

In my (fairly experienced) opinion - to act out their sense of male entitlement & economic superiority.

Some countries, like Thailand, attract more than their share of visitors whose sexual preferences are unacceptable/illegal in their home countries. They generate trades in particularly horrible types of sex tourism. But they aren't the majority. The majority are 'nice, decent' guys with good jobs and girlfriends.

I don't think a man with a healthy sense of equality would go to Thailand alone or in an all-male group, Red.

So why do female solo travellers go there? Are you saying that any traveller who passes through Thailand alone does not have a healthy sense of equality?

So which countries are acceptable places for lone tourists where they can go without some ignorant person judging them?

Frankly, Red, I won't go there alone again. It was too much fucking hassle. And I'm a middle-aged woman!

You said most single men will have sex. You did not say more likely than women. That is sexist. I do not think you understand simple statistics and what the word "most" means. Not more than women. Most means most. Where is your data that shows most single men have sex with prostitutes in Thailand?

While I think you are being wrong for generalising, I did once a dump a guy I had been seeing who went to Thailand alone and posted loads of pics on FB go himself with local women

You know. Actual evidence. Data. Facts. Breakdown by age. Holiday type
location. Etc.

GarlicReverses Sun 16-Feb-14 17:00:45
Frankly, Red, I won't go there alone again. It was too much fucking hassle. And I'm a middle-aged woman!

Which does reflect what I say about the possibility that the difference in men v women going there may be as much about women avoiding the country because of the sex trade as men going there actively seeking it.

Holly, you really think men going to Thailand just for sex with prostituted women will give all that information to someone?

And I don't understand why so many peopel want to make excuses and deny the scale of the issue. Countries with better sex equality than the UK, have nearly the same numbers of women and men travelling to Thailand for holidays. It is only some countries that have this enormous disparity in female and manle holidaymakers going to Thailand. Or are you going to argue that UK men naturally are more interested in Buddhist artefacts than men from more equal countries?

the difference in men v women going there may be as much about women avoiding the country because of the sex trade as men going there actively seeking it

Are you implying that a lone man would be LESS hassled to buy sex, than a middle-aged woman?! If you're not, you must be implying that he wouldn't mind the hassle. Which would seem to suggest he's happy to engage.

Grennie, do you think British women are more sensitive to porn and the sex trade compared to some of our European counterparts? Is it possible that this might account for some (not all) of the disparity?

GarlicReverses Sun 16-Feb-14 17:26:37
the difference in men v women going there may be as much about women avoiding the country because of the sex trade as men going there actively seeking it

Are you implying that a lone man would be LESS hassled to buy sex, than a middle-aged woman?! If you're not, you must be implying that he wouldn't mind the hassle. Which would seem to suggest he's happy to engage.

No I'm saying why would any women travel there? Is it possible that women are more bothered by being hassled than men full stop. Whether it be in terms of sex trade or for any other type of monetry exchange.

there is no where i went in thailand where sex was not on offer, from the horribly seedy parts of bangkok to the beatiful islands why because in thailand it is assumed men will pay for sex the attitude towards men paying for sex is different and men with lots of money which western men are to thai's many many men do from the serious soap dodging travellers to the group of middle aged recently divorced men

the assumption is there because so many men are using the sex industry in thailand, women are not it is that simple

" Which would seem to suggest he's happy to engage."

Why? Maybe he sees it as part of the stuff that goes on in that part of the world but the thought of using a prostitute goes against what he stands there.

It's interesting to see some people's thought processes.

"the assumption is there because so many men are using the sex industry in thailand, women are not it is that simple"

So from that truth - what conclusions can you draw?

Well lets face it, most of the types going there for sex aren't going to get it any where else are they? When you see the state of those sleazebags you can see that it's the only place they'd stand a cat in hell's chance of getting any.

I'd still like to have a list of acceptable countries for lone travellers. Male or female.

I went to Poland by myself. Is that ok?

Ethical travel does not necessarily mean avoiding a country completely. It means targeting where exactly you go and how you spend your money.

Thailand is much better than many other countries for UK visitors, its USP is not its sex industry, there are many factors.

Simple logistics for example. From London you can fly direct to KL, Bangkok or Singapore in that region, and not to other countries.

Singapore is ruinously expensive, and a tiny country with only about three days worth of attractions. Malaysia is rather prim, being Islamic.

Bangkok is closest of all those cities, and the flights tend to be a little cheaper for that reason (also competition).

The Philippines is a nice tourist destination from what I understand, but I've never been there because the extra cost and time in travelling there, it involves typically three flights rather than one to get to somewhere with a tourist industry, whereas I've been to Thailand half-a-dozen times.

Also food in Thailand is some of the best in the world.

You could stay in a world-class 5* resort such as the JW Marriot Phuket for £70/night including breakfast, which in the UK would buy you a night in a Travelodge.

Infrastructure is a big factor. It can take a day of travel in a shitty bus to travel between places in many countries in the region, Thailand is sufficiently developed to make it attractive.

Unlike visiting India you don't have to pay £100 and drag yourself to sit in shitty office in Victoria and wait in a long queue - you just land in Thailand, get your passport stamped, and you're done.

If you look at possible tourist destinations:

USA - expensive
Caribbean - expensive, small countries making transport expensive
South America - expensive flights, crime problems
Dubai - built on slavery, expensive
Europe - expensive, limited season, not exotic
Gambia - limited season, small country
Southern Africa - wildlife, but no beaches, crime problems, can be expensive
India - visa bullshit
Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt - hassle from locals (IME)
Sri Lanka - small country
Australia - expensive, ridiculously long flights
Indonesia, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. - best accessed via Thailand anyway
China - visa issues, very large

There aren't many places where you can fly in on a whim from London, stay in a 5* hotel for under £100/night, eat good food for £2, visit golden temples and then be on the beach the next day or in the jungle with elephants, etc.

But the Gambia now seems an interesting place to go. Would that be ok?