In assuming most men going on holiday alone to Thailand, are going to have sex with prostituted women or men?

[Grennie]

It is estimated that about 1% of Thailand's GDP is earned through sexual exploitation tourism.

In 2003 (the last year for which full figures are available) some 545,000 British residents arrived on visits. If you remove the children, and the British citizens visiting for business or reasons other than a holiday, you arrive at about 489,000—314,000 men and 175,000 women. That is 139,000 more British men than women coming to Thailand for a holiday—a gap of 28 per cent.

In no other international holiday destination, is there such a big difference in the number of women and men travelling there. There is no obvious reason for this apart from prostitution.

[HighlanderMam]

Are you off to tell the vegetarians that animals eat people too?

It's not funny in the least, but

[Beachcomber]

Oh please.

Yes, female sex tourists exist too. And your point is what exactly? That that somehow erases the abuses of the men who travel to Thailand to pay to fuck women and children?

We all know that more men pay for sex than women. We all know that more women and girls sell sex than men and boys. We all know that female sex tourists are less violent and abusive than male sex tourists. We all know that this whole subject is highly gendered.

Do you think there are many female sex tourists who get off on paying to penetrate underage boys?

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

There was an article on Newsnight last night which made me think of this thread.

Attitudes towards prostitution vary across Europe. In Germany, it's very relaxed and they even have large mega brothels. The owners build them near the borders so men have easy access. They provide a place off the streets for sex workers.

A well known sex worker from the UK was arguing that she has been doing sex work for 20 years and there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults paying for sex. She even brought up the service she provides for disabled people. OTOH - someone made the point that men should not have to pay for sex and sex work is wrong.

Apparently the number of sex workers in Germany has doubled to 400,000. Some claim there's been trafficking - others claim it's a free market and the money is good - up to 1000 Euros per night.

So - if we take out child sex tourism, is there anything wrong with men going abroad to have sex with a woman who is willing to prostitute herself or do people think the women aren't willing to do it but they have no choice?

Sex tourism happens in Europe. 400,000 sex workers in Germany. That's a lot.

[FreudiansSlipper]

while i understand that people have different attitudes towards sex and some may not want the emotional involvement we need to get rid of this attitude that men have to have sex and people can be bought and sold to please mens sexual desires

and how many women enjoy what they do (their voices seem to be far louder ... or are they just more interesting to read) and how many have gone into it thinking they would be ok and it has been very very damaging for them and then there are far more who have had no other choice they have been forced to either by pimps, partners, family or to earn money to feed themselves and their family

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

The Newsnight report.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03w7wd2/Newsnight_20_02_2014/

About 20 minutes in.

[Grennie]

Speak to women who have left prostitution. They almost universally condemn it. Some of them say when they were in it they too said positive stuff about it, as a defence mechanism.

Although poverty is part of the picture, it is not the whole picture. Largely it is men who pay to use women's bodies for sexual pleasure. That is because men are taught they have a right to use women's bodies for their own sexual pleasure. And women are taught that men need sex.

Prostitution is a symptom of the inequality of women.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

You're probably right - but it was interesting to hear the sex worker talking about her views.

[Grennie]

I think those who have had good experiences only, like Belle Du Jour, are relatively privileged in the sex industry.

They are of course entitled to their views and to talk about their experiences. The problem arises when their experiences are seen to represent the usual experience of women in the sex industry.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

So what do you think about the mega brothels in Germany?

400,000 sex workers in them.

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

I think that 400 000 will include an awful lot of women who don't want to be there.

If it was really true that legalisation brought everything out into the open and ended trafficking and abuse, I would be willing to support it, but all the evidence shows it is just not a magic bullet in that way.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

That was the essence of the debate last night.

It got very heated.

[livingzuid]

Sorry haven't read thread but I think it's too easy to say the vast majority of single Men go to Thailand for sex. It is really quite disgusting to see these hideous older western men with girls young enough to be their teenage daughters. Often with not just one girl but two or three. My brother was astounded when we went at how often it seemed to go on.

But it was older men predominantly. The young guys were there to travel, for the lifestyle, diving etc. I don't doubt that some younger men use prostitutes either but I find that the men who are with these women in the main are there because no sane woman the age of these girls would go near them with a bargepole back in the western world.

It's very sad. They hope these men will offer marriage and move them to a much better lifestyle than they have. But more often than not they are used, abused and dumped at the end of the holiday having served no more purpose than for some randy idiot to get his end away and boost his ego for a week or two. It's all also part of a cartel so you also have the added icky of the fact that if you're availing yourself of their services you're funding serious organised crime.

There are of course couples who are married and live very happy lives together because a western Man was working there and fell in love with a local girl. But thats very different from the seedyness I know.

Personal experience in my family makes this a subject very close to home!

[normalishdude]

I have spent months in Thailand and never had sex with a local. I met a lot of blokes who also never had sex with a local and met a few who had. But they were certainly in the minority.

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

You mean you met a few who admitted to it.
I'm sure many of those who didn't were telling the truth, but bear in mind that there are men who do it and go around boasting and men who do it and keep it quiet.
When a bloke I knew admitted to me that he'd paid for sex (Amsterdam, not Thailand) I was the first person he'd told - the only other people who knew were the friend he'd travelled with and the woman herself. No-one who knew him would have guessed.

[normalishdude]

I think it's probably due to the kinds of people I was mixing with rather than anything else.

[mathanxiety]

There are a few interesting points on prostitution in Superfreakonomics. One thing that stood out to me was that customers of the Chicago prostitutes studied for the book didn't distinguish among the women according to appearance or manner, as if they were all part of a bunch of bananas.

And yes, I realise Superfreakonomics isn't the Last Word on anything. But I thought that insight was interesting.

[ApricotExpat]

On a lighter note...! On a plane from Hong Kong to Phuket this week, I mentioned this thread to my husband. 70% etc - and his response was: well, I am a Caucasian, englishman and I'm going to Phuket to have sex - with my wife!

So in an airbus 380 I spotted literally only one person who could fit into the category you are debating. BUT, that's an assumption, and if this thread shows us anything then surely an open mind is better than assumptions!!!

[mathanxiety]

So a small sample of one man and one flight makes you cast doubt on the figures? I don't think you can make any assumptions based on that..

[ApricotExpat]

I did say a lighter note!! Come on!!!

[maxpuss]

Imagine back home in UK you are a middle aged or older man with a normal boring life, not many friends, probably not graceful and charming, lacking in personality, maybe fat and have become invisible to women. Ie. Most of us. Getting a girlfriend is not easy, in fact very unlikely. We are facing loneliness,boredom and misery until the end.
Then you go on holiday and find an exotic colorful amazing place, full of life and excitement. There's tasty different food. Strange smells. The people there are slim and attractive with smooth brown skin and flashing white teeth and the girls look directly at you and smile. They even talk to you. They are friendly. Always polite. And there are thousands of them. Then you find that you're surrounded by them and they appear to like you enough to get something going between you. They don't care how old you are. And the weather is warm and lovely.
Picture it. You feel like you've found the answer to all your problems. The secret of life. Heaven.
A lot of these men are originally looking for some kind of companionship and romance. They appear to have found it. They find that it's necessary to help the girls financially as they tell you they are dirt poor. The financial side is dealt with so expertly by the girls that these men often mentally sweep it under the carpet and honestly believe they have a relationship going. Or they know this is the only way they will ever get a girl and they better accept it. They refer to her as their girlfriend and they believe it's the custom there to slip your girlfriend money every day. The whole place is such an overwhelming thrill and makes them feel young, desireable, alive with evenings full of promise like 40 years ago. They literally fall in love with the whole thing. Its rose coloured spectacles.
They defend themselves and the Thai girlfriends with all the ridiculous excuses under the sun but slowly, as they get abused and ripped off etc they eventually become aware that they are prostitutes. 100% professional working girls and they are working these men as customers to make money. They are experts. The men become bitter and angry, disillusioned,and disappointed that their dream has been shattered . You see lots of them there in the bars from midday, looking really bored and miserable. They either stay miserable like this or alternatively they accept it's prostitution and throw themselves into it openly, making the most of an extraordinary situation. They lose sight of their morals and standards and dont care. Theyre having fun. Its got to be better than the cold lonely boring life at home. Forgot to mention, it's also cheap. Or rather, it used to be.
I've been through all this myself. Luckily I got my head sorted out and got away before I was lost forever. It was very much like a drug addiction.
This might not be all the men, there are always exceptions, but a large proportion of the men will be in this category to some extent or in some way. Neither the men or the girls are necessarily bad or evil. It's just a situation. It is what it is. But falling in love with it nearly ruined my life.

[newbian]

Absolutely it happens, I was shocked when I visited Phuket and saw so many 50+ European men with very young looking women. While I personally disapprove, if it's between two adults and they feel a mutual benefit (for him - sex, for her - money) then fine.

My bigger worry is the age of these girls/boys in many cases as there is a huge issue of tourists travelling to Thailand to have sex with children.

[LittleKiwi]

I can think of two female friends whose boyfriends confessed that while on their gap years they had wed with prostitutes in Thailand. And a third male (ex) friend who had sex with a prostitute in Thailand on a holiday just after university.

It isn't just grubby old men I'm afraid.

[Cantseethewoods]

Zombie thread resurrected by delusional and pathetic attempt at self- justification..

[Neutrogena]

I was speaking to a friend of a friend about his upcoming to Thailand, and when I asked why he was going he said to me 'Cheap rat'.
So YANBU OP