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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that only people who worship Christ should have a church wedding or baptism

405 replies

HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 09:30

And that those people who are not Christians but have a church wedding are just doing it because they want to be the centre of attention in a lovely white dress, to walk down the aisle with music playing and that all that stuff the vicar says about God etc is irrelevant because they don't actually believe it but they're going with the flow and it's traditional.

AIBU to think it's a facade - vicars go along with it because it keeps the church going, couples go along with it because it's tradition and they can ignore the religious stuff and true Christians probably get a bit annoyed but accept it?

OP posts:
HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 10:45

Ice I can understand exactly why people would want to get married in a church even if they did not believe in God.

And it's not just for the pictures and the dress.

But getting married in a church and then the religious words are two separate issues.

OP posts:
vroomvroommum · 12/02/2014 10:46

When my husband proposed I thought long and hard about this. Signed up for the Alpha course so that I could work out what I believed. In the course I began to believe in the "possibility" that 1 day I may see a place for Christianity in my life. So I decided that I would marry in church because I didn't want to regret not doing so if that day ever came. I can never imagine saying "I wish I'd got married in a civil service at a hotel" where as it us conceivable that 1 day I might say "I wish i'd got married in church"
Also, the relationship that I built with the awesome vicar at my parish CofE was very special and became important that this man who had become my friend was the man who conducted the service. It was beautiful to have that element of familiarity and friendship.

natwebb79 · 12/02/2014 10:46

I don't get it wither, OP. As an atheist if I married in a church and had to make promises to 'God' I might as well be staning there saying "I hereby declare in the presence of the king of the fairies and the chief pixie healer that I agree to marrying this man. All hail the flower imps'. It really would make that much sense to me.

Grennie · 12/02/2014 10:47

Muslims that I know don't have a big ceremony in a mosque, as Christians do in a church. They have had a very small ceremony attended by only a very small number of close relatives. It is the party afterwards that everyone attends. Indeed the ceremony can take place at home, even if there is a mosque nearby. So it really isn't comparable to a big Christian ceremony in a church.

IceBeing · 12/02/2014 10:47

Why would you get married in a church if you don't believe in god? For the same reason you would sing say the Motzart Requiem even though you don't believe in god.

Because you can be culturally christian without believing in god!

AnAdventureInCakeAndWine · 12/02/2014 10:48

Legally, in England and Wales, a civil marriage can't take place in premises that are associated with religious worship, and religious marriages do tend to involve religion. So having a wedding in the church without the religious bit isn't legally an option.

You can now (after court case last year) get married in a Church of Scientology chapel, which won't involve mentioning God as such, but I think there might be a few other details you disagree with creeping in.

HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 10:49

ice

Do you think there's a difference between getting married in a church and having a religious service and getting married in a church without the religious element?

OP posts:
IceBeing · 12/02/2014 10:49

holly It wouldn't have felt right without the words though...thats part of the ritual too. If you have attended hundreds of weddings then you want yours to be the same...

I still go to the carol services if I can get there too....they are a part of my childhood and christmas isn't christmas without it...

but I still don't believe in god.

IceBeing · 12/02/2014 10:51

You just cant brainwash someone for years and years into thinking that "THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE" and then tell that person that they can't do it that way due to some piffling little disability in the belief area of the brain.

It's not fair!

Of course the solution is to stop allowing children anywhere near religion...but that seems to be a bit of a hard concept to sell.

HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 10:52

See - I couldn't say words or listen to words I don't believe in if it was part of a ceremony that was about my relationship. Ritual or not.

Some people can.

OP posts:
PansOnFire · 12/02/2014 10:59

OP, your attitude about the church is insulting and offensive. The church is not recruiting non believers and encouraging them to get married there to make money! They are allowing people who express a wish to marry in church to do so! How can you not see that? Non believers approach them, not the other way round.

There is a difference between non believers and people who completely deny God. Non believers often just need showing the way, denying God is a decision already made. IME You would not find someone who denies God bashing down the church door because they want pretty pictures.

You do not have to attend church regularly to have the right to marry in church, you don't even have to attend church. Belief comes in different forms and attending church for worship is just one of those ways.

The church is welcoming and inclusive, it does not discriminate against people just because they don't walk through the door on a Sunday. We had a sermon recently that discussed the attitudes around religion, these negative attitudes rarely come from inside religion and is more often from opinions which have been lost in translation.

On the other hand, you do not know the true beliefs of people. My friend judged me (on an Internet forum no less, not a well disguised username!) because I had my DS christened in church, the discussion she had was that she would not attend the christening of someone she believed was doing it for a party and presents, but she would always attend the christenings of children she knew were honest and who had parents who attended church. She didn't come to my DS's christening. I attend church every week, I just don't discuss religion with her because she is an atheist and I don't think our opinions on the matter are complimentary to each other. Saving awkward conversations between us actually caused her to judge me.

Let people be - if they choose not to believe after experiencing a religious wedding then so be it.

IceBeing · 12/02/2014 11:00

I don't see it as any different to singing them...even in latin...

I guess I said the words for so long knowing I didn't mean them that it just wasn't a big deal...

IceBeing · 12/02/2014 11:01

I think I would probably choose differently now...I am older and out of the brain washing for longer...

but I am still happily married 14 years down the line...so whatever we did must have worked :)

AnAdventureInCakeAndWine · 12/02/2014 11:05

"Do you think there's a difference between getting married in a church and having a religious service and getting married in a church without the religious element?"

Yes. One is legally valid and the other isn't.

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2014 11:11

YABU and cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Our local church costs around £60000 a year just to maintain. Its a beautiful building and landmark.

With declining congregations the church is sensible to allow people to marry there for a fee, to preserve both our national architecture and the facility for people who do want to worship.

The consequence otherwise would be fewer places to worship (which might might the problem of falling numbers even worse) and these building falling into disrepair or being sold into private hands rather than being open for everyone to enjoy.

Birdsighland · 12/02/2014 11:16

DIY, "Lots of people believe in Christ and God in a more abstract way."

Now, I do think you can have a kind of ephemeral spirituality which is akin to believing in a vague 'thing' which can be broadly called 'God'.

What a Christian is, or isn't, is more a debate though. I have an ongoing with my OH. The debate is, 'can you be a kind of Christian if you don't believe in the divinity of Christ?' He's not having any of it. Says Christianity is a belief in the divinity of Christ.

I guess Christ either was or wasn't divine. You can still like the general nice bits of Christianity though, can't you? Even if the figure of JC was a charismatic social activist. The first christian churches in Britain were probably on land donated or given to the Celtic or RC churches. People's toil created them and taxes probably paid upkeep. CoE 'acquired' these and even the later ones built by CoE were the same, tithing. As such, why shouldn't they be used by people to celebrate births and marriages, also to mark a passing?

JugglingFromHereToThere · 12/02/2014 11:16

I think people should engage with the world around them in whatever way they feel is best for themselves and others.

If it's meaningful for them for whatever reason, and feels right, then that's OK by me.

specialsubject · 12/02/2014 11:20

you're absolutely right, OP - that's why most people get married in church. The fees they pay help to maintain beautiful buildings.

With luck in a generation or two we will have left religion behind, but there have been some wonderful things built because of it and it would be a shame to lose them.

if the only people allowed in church were the believers there would not be very many of you.

HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 11:25

Apparently there's been an upsurge in church weddings after the Royal wedding. There's even a video on the CofE website asking if the Royal Wedding has inspired you to get married in a church.

I'm not sure if religious faith has anything to do with it. Just please use our churches as they're nice, we get money, you get a service out of it and it's what's happened in our country for ages so it's tradition.

I wonder if William and Kate are Christians? Or were they just doing what's expected of them, keeping up with tradition? A non religious service in a non religious venue would not have done.

OP posts:
HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 11:26

special

I am not a believer. But I believe in being true to myself and what I say.

OP posts:
JakeBullet · 12/02/2014 11:30

Our Priest in a Catholic church would not agree with the OP. They say that everyone is welcome....yhey might ask WHY a couple especially want to marry in a RC church if not religious and might suggest they attend a preparing for marriage session to underatand what thwir decision means. Beyind that thoigh2 they would welcome people and perform the service,

Pigsmummy · 12/02/2014 11:30

The Catholic church doesn't do weddings for the £££!! There is just a very small admin fee. A non Christian would likely find it impossible to marry in a Catholic church without big lies. Even then I wouldn't mind tbh, the more the merrier in faith.

I am a believer, I wouldn't mind if non believers baptised their children, inclusion is far easier if the child believes later in life to become part of the church, if the child doesn't then I can't see the harm, I know that people will talk of brain washing but if the parents don't believe then the child isn't going to submersed in a Christian upbringing and won't remember a baptism anyway. A baptism service isn't inflicting anything another than a blessing, annointment and prayers. All over in about 15 minutes.

SomethingkindaOod · 12/02/2014 11:34

pigsmummy the inclusion aspect is why we had our DC's christened. It's their choice whether to take that early introduction to the church any further. I don't see brainwashing coming into it at all, too many people don't allow children the brainpower to make up their own minds IMO.

HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 11:37

I don't understand about inclusion.

Would you treat someone differently if they find faith and they have not been baptised?

What difference does it make if a child has or has not been baptised if they find faith? What does inclusion mean?

OP posts:
SomethingkindaOod · 12/02/2014 11:45

I don't think I'm going to explain my take on this very well...
I was christened and confirmed into the church. The confirmation happened because I had already been christened so was basically updating my faith and the vows my parents made when I was christened. It was my own choice to take that next step to be able to take communion and was an easier step to take in practical terms and timings (ie at the same time as my friends) because I had been christened, so it was a mixture of spiritual and practical choices I made. My parents decision to have me christened made it a whole lot easier for me personally
Also technically you can't be a Godparent if you're not christened, although this might have changed.

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