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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that only people who worship Christ should have a church wedding or baptism

405 replies

HollyMiamiFLA · 12/02/2014 09:30

And that those people who are not Christians but have a church wedding are just doing it because they want to be the centre of attention in a lovely white dress, to walk down the aisle with music playing and that all that stuff the vicar says about God etc is irrelevant because they don't actually believe it but they're going with the flow and it's traditional.

AIBU to think it's a facade - vicars go along with it because it keeps the church going, couples go along with it because it's tradition and they can ignore the religious stuff and true Christians probably get a bit annoyed but accept it?

OP posts:
TamerB · 12/02/2014 22:51

I can't see why God would be so petty- sadly it is a human failing. The teaching is full of parables such as the prodigal son, the lost sheep etc.

MrCabDriver · 12/02/2014 22:51

YANBU.

I also do not understand it.

I know a couple who got their child christened last year.

They have never been to church. Their parents never went to church. They are not christened themselves.

They do not believe in God.....They wanted a big piss up in the pub after and presents.

OBVIOUSLY not everyone does it for those reasons before someone jumps with that comment.

But some do. Fact. I disagree with those ones.

TamerB · 12/02/2014 22:54

It makes the church like some sort of exclusive golf club with members keeping out 'the wrong type' instead of opening the doors to all!
Since C of E is the state religion it is open to all- you don't have to pass a test or be seen to be doing the right thing.

CrewElla · 12/02/2014 22:56

YABVU Jesus would welcome everyone.

RustyBear · 12/02/2014 22:58

As I got married before the 1994 marriage act legalised alternative venues, I had a choice between the church in our village which my grandmother could get to, or an inaccessible register office in a town miles away, which she couldn't. I chose the church. Having my grandmother there was far more important to me than whether anybody thought me hypocritical.

meganorks · 12/02/2014 23:03

I don't really get it. If you don't believe in today don't getmarried in a church or get you dc christened. But keeps the churches ticking over I guess. For me the vows would be completely meaningless if you say them to God and yet your just lying for that bit.

mollygibson · 12/02/2014 23:11

Sorry, not sure if anyone has said this before, but NOT all churches charge for weddings! We are in Scotland and our church would never do this.

It would be at the ministers discretion whether he agreed to marry a couple or not - he would want to meet them to find out why they want to marry in his church - but I know he has married people who weren't regular attendees and he had never asked for anything: its part of his job and the church is free anyway! I find it pretty hard to get my head around churches charging for something that is part of the role of a church anyway!

When we got married I think we gave the minister some book tokens to say thank you!

As a committed Christian I would welcome a couple who chose to get married in church; whatever their reasons I would see it as a positive thing.

Just one little thing though - sorry to be pedantic but to the poster who asked if the OP was a "Christian of the Born Again kind" - a Christian, by definition, is born again, so there is no other kind!

LurcioLovesFrankie · 12/02/2014 23:15

The vicar who prepared me for baptism and confirmation (as an adult) said he was happy to do weddings and baptisms for non-churchgoers. He took the view that it got people into church and was an opportunity to show them the positive side of religious faith, and just once in a while, someone might decide to explore further as a result. That always seemed a very sensible attitude to me (NB he was not the evangelical end of the C of E).

PeriodFeatures · 12/02/2014 23:23

"Christian of the Born Again kind" - a Christian, by definition, is born again, so there is no other kind

It was me who asked op this.

I am a Christian and I am not born again. On the Spectrum of Christianity a Born Again Christian is at the complete opposite end of the Christianity I understand and relate to. I might as well be a completely different religion or indeed species!

The Jesus of my understanding is utterly and entirely different to the Jesus you understand.

Molly Be Pedantic.

ReallyTired · 12/02/2014 23:27

*I bet God is pissed off with all those people making promises in his presence they don't keep.^

I think that God knows that we are imperfect and morally broken beings. Compared to some of the attrocities that are done by humans (sometimes in God's name!) a failed marriage is nothing.

I feel that decision whether a couple has a church wedding should be between them and the priest. It doesn't hurt anyone if a pair of non christians get married in the church. Why worry about decisions that other people make?

exexpat · 12/02/2014 23:43

angelswithsilverwings - I am Shock at your FiL's behaviour. I would have eloped if I'd been threatened with a forced church wedding, and stormed out in disgust if someone had tried to make me promise to obey. Is he domineering and unreasonable in other ways? Didn't that affect your relationship?

bertiesgal · 13/02/2014 00:07

Raised a catholic, christened, communion, confirmed, attended catholic primary and comp. Now an agnostic married to an atheist.

We got married in the church that we had both (by complete coincidence) attended as children. It had been the centre of much of our upbringing. I have nuns, priests and v religious grandparents in the family. For us, the church had sentimental value and for my grandparents it was the most important thing in the world.

God is love and every vow we made was made with love. We did what we did because not doing so would have killed my flawed but loving and doddery grandparents at the time.

It was a wonderful day and the priest was lovely. If it annoys you so much then maybe you need to take a look at your own attitude towards your fellow woman/ man or focus on bigger issues in the world? Live and let live and all that.

ZingSweetApple · 13/02/2014 00:12

I have heard it from various places/people that some parents' have an underlying motive for Baptising their children which is to have a certificate which will help the child to get into certain very good schools.

so I do get where you coming from OP and I also wonder why, sometimes - and feel that getting married in a church or getting a child baptised for "the wrong reasons" is a bit iffy.

But I think I would personally still prefer people to make a promise to God however hard or unlikely it is to keep that promise than to never make a promise at all.
God only knows why we do things - and we don't know how the Holy Spirit works in each of us so maybe best to reserve judgement and let people be responsible to God only about their promises to Him.

Please don't get annoyed, it's not worth it - I think praying for people to truly let Jesus in is a much lovelier way to protect what is dear to you!
I hope you find some peace about this issue.

ZingSweetApple · 13/02/2014 00:17

oops, I did not read the full thread so encouraging you to pray is not helpful, sorry.

sashh · 13/02/2014 07:02

The last church wedding I went to the bride wasn't interested in the God stuff, but the groom was, for him it would not be a wedding if it wasn't in church.

So OP what about 2 people who just fall in love but only one believes in Christ?

kungfupannda · 13/02/2014 07:40

I wouldn't do it because I'd feel stupid and awkward saying words that neither of us believe, in the presence of people who do believe. I'd feel like I was taking the piss out of them.

I do, however, believe that the church is still an important part of many small communities, and it would be nice if the church was willing to do civil services, for people who want to be married in the heart of their community, but without lying about their beliefs and intentions.

Original poster
HollyMiamiFLA · 13/02/2014 08:04

That's an interesting question sassh and one that's been addressed on here by someone in that situation and one on the FAQs as well on the CofE website.

I suppose it's how comfortable you are saying / listening to things you don't believe in and how much you want to marry your partner.

My Dad's Catholic and my mum was CofE. They got married in a Catholic church but the deal was we had to be baptised in the CofE religion.

I bet Jesus would find that strange.

My Godparents made all those promises in the presence of God. Never seen them since. So whay was that about?

And yes - married couples are less likely to separate. But 50% will.

OP posts:
Original poster
HollyMiamiFLA · 13/02/2014 08:06

"I do, however, believe that the church is still an important part of many small communities, and it would be nice if the church was willing to do civil services, for people who want to be married in the heart of their community, but without lying about their beliefs and intentions."

This - how many "lies about beliefs" are told because you want to be at the the heart of a community which is understandable.

Cub, Brownies promises
Baptisms
Church schools.

So many people lie just to get in because - and I absolutely do get this - the church and church schools can be at the heart of a community.

OP posts:
AngelsWithSilverWings · 13/02/2014 08:17

Exexpat - I know how my father in law ( and mother in law ) behaved is quite shocking but as my non belief is so strong and certain I just saw the church as just a different venue to go to to sign some legal forms. I went along with it all because it wasn't going to do any harm. We didn't want to upset them or start on our married life without their support ( which has been amazing over the years)

I didn't have any problems saying the religious stuff in the vows as to me they were just meaningless words.

The bit about obeying is the one bit that sticks in my throat but again it is just words and no one is actually making me obey my husband.

We love MIL and FIL but their views about stuff like homosexuality and female bishops are completely opposite to our's. We have tried to challenge and argue against their views but they are so sure of their beliefs it is impossible to change them. It's the same with their right wing daily mail inspired politics. It all drives me mad!

We have to just accept that this is the way they are and they have accepted that airing their views in front of us is not a good idea. We don't want to end up estranged from each other over it so we just rub along.

Original poster
HollyMiamiFLA · 13/02/2014 08:17

Maybe I should have rephrased my AiBU?

AIBU to think people should be allowed to have a church wedding because the church is at the heart of their community but they shouldn't have to have a religious element in it if they don't want and if you have one believer and one none believer, maybe the Vicar can reflect that in what they say?

But that wouldn't have fitted on one line, would it Grin

OP posts:
NorthernLurker · 13/02/2014 08:17

Periodfeatures

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:The old has gone, the new is here!

If you believe in Christ you are a new creation aka born again. I was christened and confirmed in the church of England. I'm still born again - my faith makes me that.

Trapper · 13/02/2014 08:29

TamerB, God is very petty in the bible. Thankfully he/she seems to have got bored with the whole genocide-for-minor-misdemeanours agenda in recent years.

Original poster
HollyMiamiFLA · 13/02/2014 08:32

Smiting here, smiting there.

All that Sodom and Gomarrah stuff. Maybe God's taken their eye off the ball?

I missed the bit in the Bible where he became more tolerant.

OP posts:
JoanRanger · 13/02/2014 08:37

YANBU. There are some beautiful mosques, temples and synagogues out there but I wouldn't dream of pretending to be a Muslim, Hindu or Jew in order to have a nice backdrop to my wedding pics. I think it's insulting.

LiberalLibertine · 13/02/2014 08:38

I think some people believe in God in a more...something higher than us, some unknown energy of the universe kind of way, rather than the bible's magic man in the sky looking down and disapproving if you're gay kind of way?