to think that only people who worship Christ should have a church wedding or baptism

[HollyMiamiFLA]

And that those people who are not Christians but have a church wedding are just doing it because they want to be the centre of attention in a lovely white dress, to walk down the aisle with music playing and that all that stuff the vicar says about God etc is irrelevant because they don't actually believe it but they're going with the flow and it's traditional.

AIBU to think it's a facade - vicars go along with it because it keeps the church going, couples go along with it because it's tradition and they can ignore the religious stuff and true Christians probably get a bit annoyed but accept it?

I'm an atheist. Married in a registry office, children not christened. They do go to a CofE school though, because there is not really an alternative (village school is CofE as are all the others for miles around).

Churches could ban all but committed attendees, but how does that square with proselytising the word of Christ?

I mean, as an atheist I tend to agree that non-believers having religious ceremonies makes little sense, and I've never done it. But taking this line would hasten most churches into isolation and irrelevance. You can't be all outreach-y where faith is concerned then suddenly all exclusive when it comes to buildings and rituals. The question is what kind of place in society do churches want to have?

This is the reason why DH says the C of E is slack compared to a RC! (His views, not mine. V strong Irish/Catholic. Don't get him started on the Protestants!!)

DH is Catholic and for us to marry in his church I had to convert and then we attended marriage lessons. DD had been baptised and has church going Catholic Godparents.

My brother on the other hand married in a C of E (he and my sis-in-law are atheists) & their service had very little religious connection. Again fuelling DH's argument the C of R is slack!

It would have made me feel very uncomfortable to make religious vows and not mean them.

I got married in a multi denominational church where I went to university, so even though we were married by a priest (which was v important to PIL), to me it was a bit more about having a nice venue that meant a lot to me but not for religious reasons. Three years later, we had DD baptised in our local parish church, along with 7 other babies the same day (not sure why they say the RC church is in decline in Ireland!). At the pre-christening meeting the priest said some lovely words about how it didn't matter whether your belief was huge or as small as a little mustard seed; the important thing was that your baby would be part of a community that would be there for them always. DD can choose later on whether to make her communion etc, but I think that sense of community is so under recognised, whether you get married in your local church, have your DC christened there, whatever, it's kind of a warm and fuzzy thing .

As a Christian, I am perfectly delighted if non-believers (or very uncommitted, unsure believers) get married or have their children baptised in 'my' church. (It's their church too, even if just for the day.) I believe God's love is unconditional, and so should mine be. It's not about proselytising, it's about being there for people, when they want us, even if it's only for that one day.

Our catholic church wasn't that strict. Husband and I got married in the Catholic Church. We don't practise and didn't attend any marriage lessons. Our children are also christened in same church, some godparents were christened Catholics, others weren't. Mostly for tradition and perhaps also to share the same cultural identity as all of their family. Also, there was a very good catholic school right opposite our house.

"If you make a vow about God, you should believe it."

But if you don't believe that god exists, then you are really not going to care because the religious aspect is irrelevant.

I would never have gone for a church wedding because I think they are hideous (long, boring, pretentious) and baptisms are pointless, but I really couldn't care what anyone else does.

Let's face it, if churches were only used by practicing christians, then they would be very empty places. The church isn't that principled, the income is more important to them!

"The church isn't that principled, the income is more important to them!"

Cost of a wedding service 2014 around £450 for the service, certificates and reading the banns. Flowers and bells will be more but not everyone wants those.

Cost of a baptism. Nothing. I put out the plate and ask for contributions to the upkeep of the church and sometimes we get a couple of pounds and a toffee wrapper and sometimes people are more generous. Their choice.

Cost of a funeral - £164 for the minister to conduct the service at the crematorium

Honestly we are not raking it in.

Do you think that if people have a religious service, they should have a faith in God?

Even a bit of faith. Or is the tradition of a church service more important?

Was that question aimed at me?

If you want to remove the parish system that will be an act of parliament at least. The general synod of the church of England would have to be involved and they take forever to decide anything.

As far as I'm concerned if someone wants a religious wedding service then as long as they fulfil the criteria of residence or qualifying connection and haven't been married before then they can. If their faith is as small as a mustard seed that is fine. It was Elizabeth 1st who said that she did not want to 'put a window into men's souls' and that still sounds very sensible.

DH and I are both atheist but we had a church wedding even though I always said I wanted a registry office wedding.

I didn't bank on marrying the son of a C of E Vicar though.

DH's parents told us that they would not have recognised our marriage if we didn't marry in church.

DH's dad performed the ceremony but I refused point blank to attend his marriage prep course and told him that I needed him to know that I didn't believe in God. He said he would pray for me to accept God into my life.

The worse part was that he made me say that I would obey my DH. He refused to use the alternative wording. My DM was disgusted! I'm still annoyed that I didn't argue more against that but DH knows better than to hold me to my promise!

We wanted to have a Catholic wedding convalidation.

The priest told us it would cost £600. (It could have been £600+) I nearly blanked out.

We were given a massive discount as we weren't attending the marriage preparation course (Priest didn't think it necessary as we'd been married so long, and were raising 3DC as Catholics). If we had been required to pay £600, it would never have happened.

I really don't care whether people believe in God or are regular church goers when they get married. You can't be a "non Christian" at get married in a church. There are certain hoops you have to jump through to prove you are "Christian" before you can get married, whether it be CofE or RC.
What goes on in your heart, and your head is between you and God.

Whether your actions are consistently Christian....well...even the most "Christian" of us have a lot to answer for IME. (Have only stopped really from someone telling me last week how a homeless person had to be stopped from sleeping in the hedge of the church grounds....because he was upsetting the parishioners with his presence..."he could be a drug user or anything"..they didn't know.....

I have honestly never met two people with absolutely no faith who wished to be married in a church of any kind.

I have met people who go through the whole Catholic marriage preparation course, have a massive wedding reception and are separated a year later. I have met one reluctant, non believing partner dragged along by their believing fiancee, but not two non believers going for the church thing with out believing.

There are some very beautiful, old hotels out there which serve the purpose for non believing couples.

HollyMI YABVVU

I honestly and frankly will state that other peoples observance of spiritual practice is no body else's business. Whether you are a weekly church attender, go at Christmas, just want to be married there because it's a bit of a special place and a nice building, it really doesn't bloody well matter. Church is for everyone however they want to use it or express it.

I am a Christian from an Anglican Tradition. I have a very strong connection with my personal faith. I do not believe in the doctrine as some would but it suits me and I go to church as and when I feel like it. Just as I will also go to other places and contemplate God. I take communion and it is very personal to me.

I find it abhorrent that someone could dictate to another person how they ought to express or experience their spirituality or religion. This is how fundamentalism and abuse begins.

OP YABVVU

Applauds PeriodFeatures

What if someone says something they don't believe in? Or is a key participant using words they don't believe in?

Just like Cubs and Scouts who make a promise to God even though they don't believe but it's what you do to "get in".

What if?

I receive communion in Catholic mass.

I'm not 100% convinced it's the blood and body of Christ every time I receive it. That is between me, and God, and not even the priest, because I don't wish to discuss it.

It must be lovely to have an unwavering faith, as you do, HollyMiamiFLA.

HollyMiamiFLA

I am guessing you are a Christian of the Born Again kind?

Well said PeriodFeatures.
Christianity is about inclusion and not being judgemental. Much of the New Testament is about it.
You can't possibly know what someone else thinks.

Read the thread.

I do not believe. I am an atheist.

Still,the whole thing's bollocks anyway for many people. They go to all the effort to get a lovely dress, the perfect church, reception etc. They make promises in the presence of God to honour, love etc till death us do part. In sickness and in health. The vicar talks about marriage and God.

Then by the age of 16, 1/2 the children will be living with divorced parents.

I wonder if those people who have faith have longer lasting marriages?

I bet God is pissed off with all those people making promises in his presence they don't keep.

Even our soon to be Defender of the Faith couldn't do it.

I can't imagine why atheists would want a church, not now that you can have lovely, non religious settings with the dress and all the trimmings.
It is most likely people who have a faith
,but don't turn up at church every week, or even every year. I can't see why it matters to others- they know why they do it.

Not if you read he Bible, Holly. It is men and women who get pissed off with it and want to exclude.

I think God sees the bigger picure, and therefore doesn't get "pissed off".

God getting pissed off is so Old Testament.

If you are bothered about people getting married in church, you should be equally bothered about people buying a nice dress and getting married in a registry office.

Statistically, married couples are more likely to stay together than unmarried couples, but hey....

I bet God is pissed off with all those people making promises in his presence they don't keep

That is a moot point Holly .. if you are an Athiest.

It's a silly thread. Sorry. There are so many things in society that we could get up in arms about, hypocrisies, gray areas, conflicting values. This is what make us human beings. If our religions and churches can't embrace this then they are serving absolutely no purpose for humanity whatsoever. They are simply serving themselves.