gggrrr childcare

[MrsBucketxx]

Aibu to think nurseries and cm's seem to be the only profession, that takes money regardless if they have done any work that day.

Sick children yup you pay
Holidays yup you pay
They take a holiday you have to find childcare and pay again
You want a holiday you pay
Children at nursery when you use a cm you pay.

It seems to be the same across the board. Aibu to think this is wrong.

I am self employed and this would never hapoen in my own line of work

Eeerrr I am not employing someone, I dont pay tax or ni. I am paying for a service no?

I dont expect to be treated like I employ someone, just get what I need.

Well, if your child is ill then then its short notice. If you are away and they have notice and can sell the space to someone else then you shouldn't have to pay!!! Thats ridic.

If they are away / closed then you aren't getting a service and so you shouldn't have to pay them - you pay someone else instead. CMs are SELF EMPLOYED so should not get sick or holiday pay. They may try and negotiate that as part of their rate though.

I have looked into the maths/accounting behind nurseries, they don't make money as unlike nannies or childminders they have to cover rent rates equipment. My local nursery (by the London zone 3 tube station) is £78 a day so only viable with one child, as a nanny would cost £100 (less even for someone less experienced) and look after more than one child.

CMs are generally the cheapest option as they have their house anyway so don't have to cover rent and rates and other building costs like a nursery does, and unlike a nanny they will have 3 or 4 children to one adult (for that reason for 3 or 4 children a nanny should work out similar in cost to a childminder).

There are downsides to childcare in your home as well - ie a nanny - if they are ill then you don't have childcare, plus you have to pay then and someone else when they go on holiday. Although the upside is they will generally look after ill children, and you can try and align your holiday and their holiday.

Where's all the extra cash going?

Resources for the children
Building maintenance
Insurance
Training
Staff costs other than wages, like insurance and pensions
Utility bills

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those threads where at least 90% of replies will say YABU but the OP will still argue the case they aren't being.

MrsBucketxx - with with a CM they are self employed (ie its their house, their equipment, they tell you when they are away, they set the hours) so you are paying for a service hence no tax, NI and not entitled to annual leave or sick pay.

With a nanny they are an employee - you set the hours, they have to ask for annual leave, you provide equipment - so there is NI and PAYE and they are entitled to annual leave.

Many people make the mistake that their "childcarer" who comes to their house is self employed - this is unlikely to be the case. I am satisfied my cleaner is self employed as she comes at a time that suits her - once you get into the realms of dictating what time they come at then I think its likely they are an employee.

Well you are not legally obliged to use childcare...if you don't like it don't use it. I have a contract with my cm which I read and signed prior to my children joining. It outlined when I pay ...I agreed to it, I would be a giant cock to moan about it now.

Lets put it another way.

Let's say I open a CM next door to your existing one. I still have the same costs to cover, but I want to be fair, so I say:

a) no holiday pay for me
b) no sick pay for me
c) don't have to pay for your holidays if I am told sufficiently in advance
d) half price if your child is ill as I have to make less food and I have an easier day

The problem is now I have less income but I still have the same costs. So now instead of £40 a day per child I have to charge £46 to end up with the same income.

When people come to see me I tell them how fair I am but all they can say is - why do you charge £46 a day and next door costs £40????

They see it as a low salary as they get national minimum wage and not much more to educate, nourish and care for future generations and your precious babies. That is why child carers see it as a low salary. Would you educate and care for 26 2 year olds 59 hours a week with parents bemoaning why a child has paint on their white fur coat why a child hasn't been potty trained in a day and with all the pressure of paper work and government initiatives for £6 an hour? And still be happy not to be paid when a handful of parents go on holiday to the Maldives for 3 weeks and the nursery don't need you thank you very much?

I find these threads so depressing. There is barely any profit in running a nursery, the staff are on a low enough wage as it is, overhead costs are very high. People who work in childcare long term (from my experience) do it because they love children and love their work. That's important.

There is no way to make running a nursery profitable if you let parents off paying because their child doesn't turn up that day. I know it's the norm in some nurseries to be shut for a period over Christmas, but that is usually averaged out in the cost throughout the year.

And above all of the economical arguments about the costs of running a nursery, at the end of the day, I'm leaving my child with them. The single most precious thing in the entire world to me. I want them to be happy and to have a living wage and a rewarding job with good conditions. I want them to enjoy what they do and to take care of my son properly. I want to have a good relationship with the people I am trusting with his care. And that good relationship does not start with me expecting them to provide a service to me, free of charge, because I think they should be doing it a different way.

Pisses me off when people complain about the costs of childcare and how expensive it is to have a child.

Very few people are forced to have a child. It is their choice. You know it's going to cost you. Hopefully, sensible people work out a few sums before deciding now is a good time.

Similarly, once you have a child, no one forces you to pay for childcare. Either parent could stay at home and look after the child.

As with most things - apart from death, taxes and the fact that reality TV has been and always will be shit - it's personal choice. And there are probably people out there who would love to have kids and can't.

You are paying to keep the place open for your child. As it is, childcare staff get paid a pittance. YABU and entitled.

well you are a but of an idiot arnt you op.

I ran a childminding business and the set up costs are substantial. that's fine and what you expect to run a professional business.

so you set up with car/personal/business insurance. A home carer certificate from college that of course you have to pay for and attend. a first aid certificate etc.

I never charged for my holidays or my sickness, hardly ever had a sick day anyway and gave a years notice for my holidays so parents could match mine to save then money.

I worked 8am until 6 on every day for £3 per hour per child.

all food and drinks included so that's healthy snacks and a full meal in the evening, home cooked and healthy.

my setting was bloody fantastic actually with visits to the farm,park, local beauty spots, picnics, library, toy library, soft play, and our yearly panto ( all included in the price)

when older ones started their free nursery places I took them but of course still charged for that place otherwise I couldn't afford my own bills/mortgage. my parents would have been horrified at the thought of not paying for this.

the job of a cm is extremely responsible, you are in charge of another parents most precious possession and they deserve the best care, love and attention while with you.

often like all working parents cms put their own children and family last. you expect that.

of course if you don't feel your children deserves the best care and are just focused on mean spirited sniping then that says more about you really.

ps so yes you are completely and utterly wrong.

I'm a CM.
I don't get paid if I'm on holiday
I don't get paid if I'm sick ( not that it's ever happened!)
I do charge if mindees are off sick or on holiday.
How do you think I would have a viable business if all my parents decided to take 10 weeks holiday a year, and then add on a few weeks a year their child is ill?
You are paying for the space.
If your child went to a private school in a few years time, would you expect a refund each time they are ill or if you take them out of school on holiday?

I'm self employed. If I'm sick, I don't get paid.

If a student is sick I will try to rearrange for them so they don't lose out but I wouldn't be expecting to refund them the price of the lesson.

That would mean my income is reliant not only on my own health but every stomach bug (or birthday party) that's going around.

If you think the costs are unreasonable, don't send the DCs to nursery. We don't send our DD. I'm sole earner in our house, DH is full time student, I work round his college hours. We get 1 hour per week when family help with childcare, literally, as it was unworkable any other way. We looked at the cost of nursery and even with a grant for partial fees from DH's college, nursery just for one child would have been totally affordable. Sorry but I think YABU.

I found a local cm and a local nursery with more flexible attendance / sickness policies. After a visit guess what? I wouldn't put my child in there if it was free!

Do you want to pay for quality childcare or not? I didn't want to leave my baby with a couple of teenagers with nvqs so I'm paying extra.

can I add that the vast majority of cms have had careers prior to starting the businesses. many are teachers, nursing sisters, business women.

they have a Miriad of skills for which you are paying very littie.

I find it very, very hard to believe that Nursery Chains (eg Asquiths) aren't profitable given that the staff are on minimum wage yet the parents are charged £70+ per day 256 days a year (averaged out per day but still paying for days when the nursery is shut). I understand about the overheads, insurance, food costs - but given what they pay the staff the owners MUST be making money. How do we know they are not? Are we just accepting that at face value because that is what they say (to justify under-paying staff and over-charging parents).

I am self-employed so know all about business rates, employers NI, employees NI, public liability insurance, corporation tax, personal tax, overheads and all the rest. But we are talking about large chains with 100s of nurseries and 1000s of parents (with the economies of scale that go with this eg all use same food supplier). They must make a healthy profit otherwise how do they continue to expand? (and put whiteboards, gardens and teepees in!)

Totally get it for independent non-chain nurseries though (are there any left?)

I am self-employed and if I don't work, I don't invoice/charge. I think that rule should apply across the board for self-employed people really. But equally, people on a salary should get sick and holiday pay of course.

Please don't anyone misinterpret what I am saying about people working in nurseries. I absolutely do not think they should be paid less to cover parents holidays (I think they should be paid more) - I think the nurseries should bear the cost (unless someone can convince me that their margins are that narrow)

There are independent non-chain nurseries left (I use one and know of a handful in my area, and only two big chain nurseries).

I used to earn a good salary in a City job where I didn't see my children for 4 days a week due to hellish hours and can tell you the past 2 years I've been a CM I've never worked so bloody hard in my life for so little return so I honestly do feel justified in charging parents when their child is off for whatever reason or for 4 weeks holiday a year. If parents don't like my terms they go elsewhere but as I'm full with a waiting list I'm clearly doing something right.

"I am self-employed and if I don't work, I don't invoice/charge. I think that rule should apply across the board for self-employed people really." But Forago how often are you invoicing at £3.50 a hour?

I know, I know and that is a valid point. But isn't that like saying I shouldn't pay corporation tax because Amazon and Starbucks don't?

I really have no issue with CM charging for scheduled sick days or days the child doesn't attend, that is perfectly fair enough to me - they'll have worked out numbers, bought food etc. I pay the CM in advance and if, on occasion, I get back early or my dc wants to go to a friends after school, I certainly wouldn't expect a refund.

But I do think that if you want to be paid to go on holiday you have to be an employee. If you are self-employed, you build it in to your overall financial position, as a family.