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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Court has ordered I take my 6 month baby to abusive ex-husbands home

119 replies

JessKB1 · 11/02/2014 00:02

Hi All....I've just joined mumsnet as wanted some advice. My ex-husband left prior to me giving birth and was abusive during my pregnancy. He's had contact with the child as I want my baby to have a relationship with her father (even though I want nothing to do with him). However he took me to court re contact and CAFCASS & the judge both agreed my baby & I would be safer at his home (lives with his parents) rather than at mine where contact has been taking place. They were aware of the abuse when making this decision. A contact order was made in ex's favour. My baby is only 6 mths old and always cries when ex is nearby. Had the first contact session at his home and within 10 minutes of arriving he began threatening me. I somehow managed to stay there for 3 hours even though my baby was extremely upset to the point that she nearly stopped breathing due to her crying and ex not letting me console her. I'm terrified of going again and worried about what could happen. I'm in the process of getting legal advice but have been told that I will need to continue going. Does anyone know if a contact order can be changed?......Thanks

OP posts:
TheGreatHunt · 15/02/2014 20:58

Why do you want your daughter to have a relationship with this horrible man?

When she's older and potentially messed up by this, how will you look her in the eye and told her you did the best for her welfare?

bochead · 15/02/2014 21:03

I think it might be worth your seeing a different solicitor. They do vary in how good they are at their jobs, same as every other walk of life. You can usually get 30 mins free as an initial consultation - use the time to discuss facts not waste it on requests for emotional support. Write down your questions to have to hand before you go.

Also investigate what support womens aid, can give you. Assertiveness training can help some women state their case to professionals etc better, and family therapy can help you detach your feelings about what a father should be (your own father) from the waste of space that is the reality on offer to your daughter.

Have you got hold of ALL the evidence of abuse you suffered from your midwife/HV/GP records etc? It's worth double checking.

If his family are going to present at contact he has witnesses to deny any abuse is occurring, you really need to take a witness of your own with you , or record it and take the recording to the police station.

keep a diary of your child's behavior before and after contact

JessKB1 · 15/02/2014 21:08

True. But the court and cafcass will reply that I haven't given it Enough time. It's like I'm playing a game.

OP posts:
JessKB1 · 15/02/2014 21:36

Like I said before now I've seen how bad they can be at the first contact I don't want him or his family to have anything to do with my dd.

I have been recording the sessions and will transcribe them in case I need them in court.

I'm going to get advice from another solicitor.

OP posts:
JessKB1 · 15/02/2014 21:54

TheGreatHunt I was letting him have contact because I didn't want my dd to ask me when she's older why I didn't at least try to work things out for her sake. I'll now be able to look my dd in the eyes and say I tried but her father was so selfish that he took her mother to court and this was the start of ruining her childhood.

OP posts:
Spero · 15/02/2014 22:30

This needs to be unpicked.

Yes, it is the law that a child has a right to a relationship with both parents. There is thus a presumption that direct contact with both parents is in the child's best interest.

This presumption can be overturned. But it needs to be overturned by evidence.

It will not be sufficient to overturn this presumption to say that one parent dislikes another or finds him/her annoying or unpleasant. There will have to be serious, corroborated evidence that direct contact with the parent will be harmful.

So, as others have said, stop worrying about what the 'ideal' should be - of course in an ideal world your daughter would have a healthy, loving relationship with her dad.

But lets deal with the real world. Decide what you are really worried is going to happen here. If you are genuinely worried that he would hurt her if he ever got the chance, that is a very serious accusation and you are going to need serious proof. Usually, only corroboration from other agencies like hospitals or the police or independent witnesses will be enough to establish this. If you succeed in proving this, it is an argument for no contact.

If you are worried he would be careless/inconsiderate, again gather your evidence. This is an argument for supervised contact until he can demonstrate he has adequate parenting skills.

If he is abusive and unpleasant to you, not physically violent but emotionally abusive, this can be very tricky as of course your daughter will in time pick up on it but it is going to be hard to convince a court that this is a reason for no contact or long term supervised contact.

if your current solicitor is not explaining what is going on in a way that makes sense, get another one.

I would really like to know what possible justification there is for you all having contact together. Madness.

JessKB1 · 16/02/2014 07:22

He was physically and mentally abusive towards me while I was pregnant. I have evidence for this but wasn't available at the court hearing. He denied the allegations. He would lose his temper over the smallest things and become physically abusive. I'm worried that if dd cries too much he would get angry and harm her physically eg by shaking.

He's also very careless to the point he's a danger to himself I have examples of this. But again this concern was ignored in court.

I appreciate all the comments from other mumsnetters about why I was allowing contact in the first place and that I should be clear about what I want. I wanted contact as it's dds right to know her father, I wanted to see if he had changed at all. He then threatened me with court action and to protect my dd from being dragged into the legal system I felt I had no choice but to let him see her. Once he made the application despite having contact I hoped the court would see he's having contact and they don't need to interfere. I told cafcass about the concerns I have but they were used as a reason against me.

OP posts:
sticktomummy · 16/02/2014 07:33

This is JessKB1....fancied a name change lol

Spero · 16/02/2014 09:38

This situation has got really messy. Sorry, please don't feel I am 'having a go' or being critical of YOU - I know that it is really strong desire to want the 'best' for your children and that includes a loving decent father.

So I think your initial good intentions have got you in a mess.

It is going to be very difficult, if not impossible to try now to rely on historical matters as a reason for stoping/restricting contact as the court I am afraid is likely to think you aren't genuine and are just saying this to 'get at' the father because you don't like him.

So it might be better to focus on his behaviour NOW and they say to the court - look. With hindsight, I wish I had never agreed to this. He was abusive and horrible to me all through out my pregnancy. But I really wanted my child to know her father. I regret that now as he is STILL being abusvie and I am very worried about the impact on my child. I cannot supervise contact any more and I don't think he can cope with a baby'.

I think a court would have sympathy with that approach. See what your lawyer thinks.

sticktomummy · 16/02/2014 13:40

Yeah I can see your point about my good intentions but if I had point blank refused any contact with my dd I still would be in the situation I'm in now. They (cafcass and the judge) would have come to the same conclusion that I'd be safer at his parents home than at mine. Having spoken to my hv she also advised that the courts are becoming overly biased in favour of fathers regardless of what they did in the past.

JuliaScurr · 16/02/2014 13:44

rightsofwomen.org

should give you some good, free advice

sticktomummy · 16/02/2014 13:50

I'll have a look at the site. ..Thanks

ADishBestEatenCold · 16/02/2014 15:31

I don't know enough about the workings of Social Services to know if this would be helpful, but I wonder if it would be a good thing to contact them about your concerns (given the history of physical abuse in your relationship) and to ask them to become involved with the contact.

Does anyone know if SS would be able to help?

sticktomummy · 16/02/2014 15:43

I've had mixed opinions about ss so not sure if I should get them involved

Spero · 16/02/2014 16:13

I am really annoyed your HV said that. It is not a question of the courts becoming biased towards one parent or another. It is the FACT that the courts have to apply the law - both domestic and international - which supports a child's right to have a relationship with both parents, it this is in the child's best interests.

So it is no point saying that someone has done awful things in the past, if they deny it, you haven't got any evidence and the court hasn't made any findings. The court can't just take the word of one party against the other without hearing evidence and making findings.

I doubt that social services would be able to help. Their budgets are very stretched - they are highly unlikely to have anything to offer you with regard to helping with contact, unless this was in the context of care proceedings and they felt your child was at risk of significant harm.

pigletmania · 16/02/2014 18:05

Well spero you will probably flame me for this, but reading similar cases where one parent is being abusive but tge court still sanctions contact, the laws an ass. Not in all cases is contact with both parents benificial to the child.

Spero · 16/02/2014 20:23

i won't flame you as hope that is not my style, but may I politely question how you can possibly know that all these are miscarriages of justice and abusive men being ignored?

You don't know. you know what you are told or what you read. And believe me there are plenty of situations out there which are much more complicated than simply 'abusive man' 'innocent woman'.

pigletmania · 16/02/2014 22:06

But spero you cannot guarantee 100% that it does not happen. Yes I am thinking of baby's one, but a few that I have read about

pigletmania · 16/02/2014 22:09

Another Mumsnetter found this article, it seems to be tge stance that the courts are taking which is very worrying

Spero · 16/02/2014 23:08

Why does that article worry you? Its not an article anyway, seems to be a collection of powerpoint slides which I have glanced over, seems pretty reasonable to me.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I have had many, many cases where a woman alleged a man was abusive and this just wasn't true. What was in fact going on was the woman was very bitter and disliked the man - I think it was rare that she would consciously and deliberately make things up but she would certainly put the most negative spin she could on anything that the man did. And made very sure that her child knew what she thought.

this is clearly abusive behaviour.

Yes, there are many men who are emotionally and physically abusive. But equally, so are many women.

And it is the children who suffer.

I don't promise 100% success rates and no mistakes ever. How could that possibly ever happen? But to argue that courts are deliberately biased 'towards men' is just absolute nonsense. Take a trip over to any mens rights activist sites and see what they believe about the family court system.

You can't both be right can you?

So don't you think the truth - as ever - lies somewhere between the two extremes.

pigletmania · 16/02/2014 23:45

But spero, each case is different, yes SOME mothers do this, but to assume all RP do this is wrong, and can ignore real abuse and dilute te children's voice. each case should be looked at individually, not one size fits all assumption as one size does not fitb all, there are grey areas too. Abuse can go ignored, the children may confide in the RP as they feel much more comfortable with them. All this nasty Alienating mother crap is dangerous and can ignore real abuse.

Spero · 17/02/2014 00:13

WHO is assuming anything about 'all' RP?

I am not. People writing about parental alienation are not.

It happens. It is real. Of course, not ALL mothers alienate their children, just as not ALL fathers are loving and caring.

YOU are the one saying that you think the courts are biased.

Give me some evidence, other than what anonymous people tell you on the internet.

IneedAsockamnesty · 17/02/2014 00:38

In all fairness they are biased but towards contact

IneedAsockamnesty · 17/02/2014 00:43

And I strongly expect the op did the whole lets encourage contact and be reasonable thing because in RL and on forums much like this dickheads blunder in with nonsense about domestic abusers not being shitty parents and it being better for the child to have contact and if she does not appear to be accommodating all these dreadful things will happen and her child will hate her.

Because that's what happens when ever a thread that does not involve direct to the child abuse appears.