Court has ordered I take my 6 month baby to abusive ex-husbands home

[JessKB1]

Hi All....I've just joined mumsnet as wanted some advice. My ex-husband left prior to me giving birth and was abusive during my pregnancy. He's had contact with the child as I want my baby to have a relationship with her father (even though I want nothing to do with him). However he took me to court re contact and CAFCASS & the judge both agreed my baby & I would be safer at his home (lives with his parents) rather than at mine where contact has been taking place. They were aware of the abuse when making this decision. A contact order was made in ex's favour. My baby is only 6 mths old and always cries when ex is nearby. Had the first contact session at his home and within 10 minutes of arriving he began threatening me. I somehow managed to stay there for 3 hours even though my baby was extremely upset to the point that she nearly stopped breathing due to her crying and ex not letting me console her. I'm terrified of going again and worried about what could happen. I'm in the process of getting legal advice but have been told that I will need to continue going. Does anyone know if a contact order can be changed?......Thanks

[FlankShaftMcWap]

Agreed Piglet, I was lucky that ExP couldn't be bothered to pursue through the courts once he was discredited with SS. I have heard that the court doesn't set much store by audio recordings no matter how much one may hope that common sense would prevail once they hear it.

I also think the fact that I didn't warn the meeting what I was about to do helped, if I had they may have refused to listen. As it was I just asked for a moment to say something and pressed play. Nobody asked me to stop once I started and one lovely CP social worker who had been supportive from the start dissolved into tears and hugged me till it was over. I couldn't have gotten through it without her. Sometimes it takes coming across one gem within the system who just "gets" your case, I hope OP has similar luck.

[pigletmania]

I know flank, I am thinking of one babynamechanger who is battering with the system for them to listen and to out her ds needs and wishes above tge abusive ex. That's a good idea, mabey she needs to do something like that in a meeting, I don't think there is one professional who is supportive in her case

[pigletmania]

I think if she did that in court judge would probably hold her in contempt, but mabey in a meeting like yours

[jigsawlady]

Ring social services, say you officially want to report concerns and see if they will be there for contact. They would certainly want to come round and see you if someone reported you for abuse so hopefully they'll do the same witb your ex.

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

OP, In my experience men that abuse women do so because they are cowards and like being bigger and stronger than someone. So they are also abusive to their children.

My dad was incredibly violent towards me but before me he abused my mother. So while it was a noble intent that you had trying to give your child a father and keep up contact.. Do your absolute best to make it difficult for him. If he gets bored, and leaves you..do not push for any contact from him.

[bochead]

I don't have much faith in any of the usual professionals of the CP system, as only the police seem able to act fast enough to save a kid in an emergency. I just wish more women had the courage to call them when things are at the "loud mouth threat" stage of court ordered contact arrangements with abusers, rather than waiting until it is too late.

The police can be more helpful than people realise - a recording of an abusive contact dropped off at your local police station together with a chat can help where others won't. If nothing else you get the address and the name of the child etc on their radar. They are hopeless if you get burgled but seem to prioritise child safety in a way that some other more politically correct agencies don't at times. I think it may be to do with the fact that sadly they are the first on scene when things do go wrong and hate it.

The police have great influence with both SS and the courts, and if they deem a criminal offence has been committed are the ONLY ones with the power to go round and actually stop contact in it's tracks FAST. They can work with SS to get a court order to protect a kid in less than 24 hours, something no mother even if she's paying lottery figure legal fees can ever achieve! (You are often lucky in many areas to get a court date in under 3-6 months, too late if it's over a CP issue)

Police and medical records count with the family courts, not much else does sadly.

[GatoradeMeBitch]

"I think its good when OP says that she wants the father to have a relationship with the baby, though she wants nothing to do with him. That suggests that the OP doesn't believe the baby to be in danger."

But sometimes, Zippey, women say that because they feel it's the 'right' thing to do. If the baby is afraid of him at six months it suggests he has been shouting and aggressive in front of her.

OP, I think you really need to let go of this 'she has a right to know her Dad' stuff. Isn't her right to be free from fear and danger far more important? What about when she's old enough that he can have her on his own? Do you trust him to raise her properly and not lose his temper if she has a tantrum?

Be very open with the court about the abuse that has occurred, document everything, and stop cooperating with him. If you don't feel safe around him, there' no way your daughter will feel safe in a couple of years when she has to stay there alone.

[VegetariansTasteLikeChicken]

Abusing a pregnant woman is abusing her unborn child. So he has already abused his daughter

[grumpyoldbat]

When women say they want contact sometimes its because they have to say that or else they will be seen as the aggressor and risk custody being awarded to their abusive ex so it seems like the lesser of 2 evils. That's what I was advised .

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Bochead.

I've routinely got court orders inside of 24 hours even on public holidays

[JessKB1]

Thanks for your opinion zippy but he having had contact with dd for over 4 months at my home she's still not comfortable with him.

I don't see how leaving my dd with only them will be in her best interests. I'm all for dd having a relationship with him and grand parents but not when she is clearly distressed.

[JessKB1]

Completely agree with you phantomnamechanger if he's so concerned about her why has he got her involved in the legal system. All she's gonna have in her childhood is inconsistency. She'll just be a number to the legal professionals.

Instead he should be apologising and making up for his past behaviour.

[Spero]

If he is abusive and you are scared and/or you think your child is suffering then you must apply to the court NOW to discharge or vary the existing order.

You need to get competent advice from a specialist solicitor in family law.

But I am afraid the fact that you allowed him in your home for a number of months is not going to help your credibility. He will say that you are not afraid of him and the court will see your willingness to allow him in as evidence that this is true.

If you can get evidence of any abusive behaviour by recording him for e.g., this is one of the situations where i think it would be a good idea.

It sounds odd to me that the court ordered contact in his home, with you present, but I don't know the circumstances.

But when parents don't get on for whatever reason, it is usually counterproductive to have them both in same room for contact.

[JessKB1]

Hissy I think it's the nice side of me that wants dd to have a relationship with her father. Think its because I have a good one with my father that I wish the same for dd. Plus as i'm present at ghe contact sessions I know dd is ok. However now he's taken me to court I fear that if the court enforces unsupervised contact my dd will be in harms way. Hence I will be fighting for contact in my home with my supervision.

[Joules68]

I thought that too spero,and said so up thread. contact with youpresent op,is not a great idea

push for a contact centre so its initially supervised

what evidence do you have for the judge that he's a danger to dd?

[Hissy]

But he's an abuser.

Of women.

He abuses those he can dominate and control.

To begin with he'll just fight you to see her.

Just cos it will upset and hurt you.

Then, if he succeeds, he'll be hit and miss with contact, and he'll do a shit job of caring for her.

Just to hurt you.

He'll use your baby as collateral damage.

Do whatever you can to minimise his damage of her.

That means reduce contact/exposure as much as you can,

You can't have a successful relationship with an abuser.

[Hissy]

You can't compare à relationship you have with your (presumably) unabusive dad with the one your dd will have with this piss poor excuse for a human being that is you abusive ex.

You do know they are practically write-offs as people, don't you? No chance of them getting any better.

[Spero]

If he is abusive, he is not going to be a good father, she is not going to benefit from a relationship with him. So go to court and argue your case. don't muddy the waters by confusing him with your dad. That is a different situation. Your father is a different man.

I am concerned that you cannot detach from him. Either he is too dangerous or unsuitable to be having anything other than supervised contact (or not contact at all) or he needs to be building a relationship with his child away from you.

I don't think the scenario you outline - being constantly present - is healthy or happy at all.

[JessKB1]

I did want contact for my dd's sake despite the abuse during pregnancy as I felt It was the'right thing to do' plus he kept threatening court action and I didn't want dd to have to face court proceedings at such a young age. Now that the contact order has been made I fear for her and worry that he'll get unsupervised contact. My solicitor advised the judge and cafcass officer that it should ve seen as a positive thing that I'm allowing contact at my home but it was portrayed negatively and the reason given for contact at his home is because myself and dd would be safer there. I don't understand how?

When we were at his and dd was crying hysterically to the point of not breathing ex would not let me anywhere near het. As I'd try to take hold of her he'd move out of the way or turn his back to me even though dd was reaching out to me. It was heart breaking.

[JessKB1]

I think you're right spero and hissy. Since the first contact session I have been getting legal advice to get him out of my life and dd's life. Though I think it's going to be a very hard battle.

[Spero]

the only reason for supervised contact is to test the situation to move it on to unsupervised. It can't be supervised for ever. If someone is that dangerous or unsuitable they have to be supervised for many years, they shouldn't be having contact at all.

I don't understand how this has ended up with you and him and a baby all together. This sounds really dangerous and stupid to me. Even if he is not abusive, you are not in a relationship with one another, it is a tense and difficult situation at the best of times.

If he can't be trusted to look after a baby, he should either be supervised at his home or in a contact centre, but not by you.

If your baby finds it very difficult to be away from you, then contact should be for short periods of time until she is more settled.

This whole situation sounds very odd and very unsatisfactory and I think you should be seeing your solicitor urgently so that you can get an explanation for what is going on.

[JessKB1]

I agree with you. And also think the situation isn't good at all. But the fact that a contact order has been made means it's difficult for me to things my way. I was extremely disappointed when the judge ordered contact at his home and even suggested that I not be there. I was hoping that the court would see that contact is taking place and therefore dismiss the application but the complete opposite happened. Everyone keeps saying don't turn up for the contact but if I do this then I'll be in breach and i'll get punished. Sometimes I just feel like I'll be fighting a losing battle or just don't know what I can do.

My solicitor keeps telling me I have to go regardless of my fears and the issue of abuse. She's worried that he could go back to court and enforce the order. I'm hoping to get a second opinion from another solicitor.

Though my current cafcass officer is also confused as to why this contact order was made.

[JessKB1]

I also fear that they may put on a front of being nice to my dd and myself just to get unsupervised contact and then they'll cause harm to my dd.

[Spero]

I think its right to say you shouldn't disobey the court order - unless you think things are extremely difficult/dangerous - but you can apply to vary/discharge it.

If you feel uncomfortable, and CAFCASS don't understand the order, there are two reasons right there.

[Spero]

I do think your position is confusing - on the one had you want your daughter to have a relationship with him, on the other, you think he would hurt her if he had unsupervised?

I think you have got to get it clear in your own mind what you are worried about. Then see your solicitor and discuss bringing this back to court.