To think that if you are grown man at a swimming pool dressing your small daughter...

[2cats2many]

..you should use the clearly marked, clean and almost-empty family change room rather than the women's change room?

I approached him and said quietly: "Do you know that you are in the women's change room?" To which he replied: "Yes, but she insists in coming in here and the alternative would be a big, screaming fight. I'm actually quite uncomfortable." He then made a swift exit.

Well, guess what- so are all the women who are using the changing room in the reasonable expectation that they would be able to get showered and changed in the mostly shared facilities (just a few cubicles) without being joined by a man.

In his position, I would have the big screaming fight.

There are times to placate children and there are times to be a grown up and explain they can't have what they want.

Glad you think it would funny to upset lots of women.

Good grief- what an odd post Dinah. I really don't care if I am 'conditioned' or not- I expect the ladies to be just that, apart from boys under 6 yrs old.
I would just have told him that he had no choice, the big screaming fight was his problem to sort out in the family room.

The child is really onto a winner if she throws a tantrum and gets her own way!

You know what it is ok for me to not want a man looking at my naked body.
I don't understand why my feelings do not count to some people

There could be a multitude of reasons why I and other women feel uncomfortable with this scenario and we shouldn't have to bloody list them out for all the 'I'm cool with nudity' people.

If I use the ladies changing room I should be able to use them without having to worry about a grown man walking in even if it is with his young daughter.

It's very unkind to ridicule women (or men, or children for that matter) who object to being naked in front of others as "fuddy duddies". You may well have a point about teaching children to be accepting of their own and others' bodies - no matter what shape or form they take - but you can't expect very many people to lose all their inhibitions just like that when they've been subjected to years of social conditioning and/or have religious reasons why public nudity is unacceptable and/or were brought up (rightly or wrongly) to be "discreet" and/or have one or more of the 1001 different personal and individual reasons why they have body issues.

Being "freaked out" - ha di bloody ha how hilarious - may seem ridiculous to you but unintended exposure to other people can actually cause genuine distress for many people. Some posters have already mentioned their children with special needs for whom such exposure would lead to a stressful and upsetting meltdown. Others would feel mortified (again, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks) and embarrassed and the incident would cause them hours of anxiety and discomfort.

However "right on" you want to be - or think everyone should be - about nudity, the fact is that attitudes won't change overnight. And "fuddy duddies" should be allowed to choose if and when they alter their opinion ..... if they can. It's not as simple as flicking a switch over something like this when feeling happy about your body and feeling happy to expose it in all its nakedness can be down to complex emotions and experiences.

Personally, I'm reasonably happy with my clothed body but feel very anxious about being naked in front of others - women or men. There are some situations when it can't be avoided, e.g. medical stuff, but I hate it regardless of the "they've seen it all before" thing and similarly, hate getting dressed in a communal changing room, even if it's just women .... if a man came in I'd feel far far more uncomfortable no matter how innocent he intended to be. I have noticeable scars on my back which contribute to this and other people may think I'm being "silly" but there you go. No-one has the right to make me or anyone else feel bad because we choose to be discreet and prefer to change in private.

So .... OP, YANBU !!!

I think the man involved was very brave and was just trying to placate his daughter (haven't we all occasionally done the 'wrong' thing in order to achieve this?)

Err...no

There's a difference between picking your battles and jumping through ridiculous hoops in order to avoid tantrums. Fortunately, the majority of parents are able to use better judgement.

Surely he should have taken her into the men's change room? Even if he is the nicest least leery man in the world, grown men do not go into women's changing rooms under any circumstances.

If this was to happen again, I think you should alert the staff to come and deal with him and the toddler.

Surely he should have taken her into the men's change room?

No. He should have taken her into the family changing rooms which are provided for exactly this purpose.

I think its very rude and disrespectful to decide that I have serious 'issues' that I should get over because I have been 'conditioned'.

Every person has been conditioned in some way even if its only to know that rape murder violence etc isn't right. Should I have help to overcome these 'issues' as well?

This place is for women and children only and this man was wrong in going there. As a society thats what we do - we consider what we want, rules are made and we live by them. It shouldn't matter whether we have 'issues' or not. We should live by the rules that are set for the places we go.
I have friends who are nudists but just because thats what they like they wouldn't do it in an inappropriate place.

And does having a bit of common sense not apply to 'Elderly women and teens, women who've recently had mastectomies, women who've been raped and sexually assaulted.' That's so patronising

It's not patronising at all. It's fucking rude to say to people "It's just bodies, I don't mind being seen naked by strange men in a woman only space so neither should you." You can't just deny the lived experience of millions of other women because it's not your experience. It's not common sense to think it's perfectly normal to have men in female only spaces when you are naked. I was sexually assaulted in a female only space. It has changed the way I react to men in closed environments and being suddenly confronted by an adult man when I am in a vulnerable state (and I feel vulnerable when I am naked no matter how much some patronising arsehole tells me 'it's just naked bodies') would seriously freak me out. I am not the only victim of sexual assault to feel like this so don't patronise me by saying that I should have more 'common sense'.

Since when has being a bit thick come across as 'entitled' .

DAYKIN, I am sorry for what happened to you, I haven't been assaulted in such an awful way as you but still find it very patronising to be told that I should'get over' my not wanting a man in a womans only changing room.

Well said Daykin

Walking into a women's changing room to avoid a tantrum - even if the child has SN - is thick and self defeating.
The man is an arse.

But the assumption upthread that a man out with his DD must be a single dad is even more fucking stupid.
Dh has been taking DD to her swimming twice a week since she was about 6.

Jeez.

I thought the rules were up until 8 years old you have to take the child into the changing room for the gender of the adult with them so he should have gone into the mens (or indeed the family changing room). After 8 children are supposed to go in on their own on again in the family room.

This has nothing to do with men seeing women naked. Some people are very self conscious but that is no one else's business to comment on IMO. When i was younger and had an eating disorder i would have been mortified for men to have seen me undressed.

We haven't had a "my 11 yr old great galumphing lad with no SN isn't going into those nasty male changing rooms on his own to be molested by all those pervy male swimmers I'm taking him with me into the mammy's bit until he's 25" for aaaaages have we?

Shall I start one? I luffs a good changing room thread.

After 8 children are supposed to go in on their own on again in the family room.

Why are they supposed to go into family changing areas alone?

Most posters on here "I don't want a man looking at me" (Rightly so). "surely he should have taken her into the mens changing room"...because obviously the girl wouldn't mind a group of men looking at her. I'm sure the Dad wouldn't neither!! Yes he should have took her into the Family Room. OP told him this. He didn't hang around. He quickly left and I'm pretty sure if he does she will let the Pool Staff know.

because obviously the girl wouldn't mind a group of men looking at her.

Don't male changing rooms have cubicles that small children can be changed in?

It's fucking rude to say to people "It's just bodies, I don't mind being seen naked by strange men in a woman only space so neither should you." You can't just deny the lived experience of millions of other women because it's not your experience. It's not common sense to think it's perfectly normal to have men in female only spaces when you are naked.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, and I'm not keen to walk around naked in front of strange men either, but as someone with experience of this also, I feel it is better to put this sort of situation down to a foolish mistake, and while momentarily uncomfortable it is better MH-wise to try not to be overly freaked out and develop some resilience, as accidents like this may happen. I don't think anyone said this was normal but it does sound as if the man was a bit unthinking rather than intent on harming anyone

Can you not see the inconsistencies in those statements Gold. You can't have it both ways. Oh and no there aren't any Family / small cubicles in the male Changing rooms in my Pool.

By the sounds of it he was BU. One pool we swim at has open plan changing rooms with a few cubicles with flimsy curtains - when I swim with ds (4) I take him in there. Lots of women of various ages are naked. I would feel it inappropriate for a male to be there unless he was working and it was absolutely necessary - e.g. to give first aid. The other pool has all cubicles - two rows of family ones and a row each of male and female ones. While I would think him a little eccentric for using the bright pink obviously designed for female ones I personally think that assigning gender specific cubicles when anyone can see down the length of any row and you have your own lockable cubicle is slightly excessive.

From your posts it sounds as if maybe it was just the dd getting changed, maybe after a swimming lesson? If so I would mention it to the swimming co-ordinator so that they can remind parents by email, highlight the family changing rooms and maybe keep an eye out next week themselves.

My dd1 is 8 and although she dresses herself etc I know that my 'encouragement' speeds her up a bit so we can all get home to eat. I am there anyway for my 6yr old, so I can see other advantages to using family changing rooms for older dc.

Gold I think that "on" should say "or".

Do people really think a men's changing room is inappropriate for a girl under 8? My dad used to take me and DSis into the men's every time. It's no big deal. But if children are upset or parents are concerned there is a family room. It's really a no brainer?

When DS was little instead of calling them "ladies" and "men's" toilets/changing rooms we called them "mummies" and "daddies" toilets. That way he didn't get upset about going into the wrong one and always expected to go into the correct gender for the adult who was accompanying him.

We used to use the men's shower and toilet blocks when camping too! I can assure you I'm not scarred in any way, can't even remember it TBH.

YANBU

Men are not allowed in women's changing rooms. Women have a right to expect this rule to be followed.

"surely he should have taken her into the mens changing room"...because obviously the girl wouldn't mind a group of men looking at her. I'm sure the Dad wouldn't neither!!

So if you take a small child into a men's changing room, they will all perv on the child, is that right?

Rather than, um, not giving a fucking shite about the fact that a child is there.

When a woman brings a little boy into the women's dressing room, is that a "group of women looking at him"?

If not, why not?

Men's changing rooms are where men go to get changed. They are no more full of "hairy men waving their willies about" (like some idiot Dad said earlier) than women's dressing rooms are full of women showing off their boobs and hairy fanjos.

Adult bodies (of either gender) are not disgusting and there is no more reason to protect a small girl from seeing a man get changed there there is to protect a small boy from a naked woman.

Single-gender changing rooms exist for many reasons, some good and some bad.

But where they exist they should be observed by ALL adults and older children (depending on the rules of the place) and any younger dependants being brought along need to go with the gender of the adult.

I can't believe people think that little boys should be in the women's dressing rooms but that it's unacceptable for little girls to go into the men's.

What are the fathers of daughters supposed to do?

Can girls only be brought swimming by women?

If men's dressing rooms are so dangerous that children can't be brought into them supervised by their own father, then we maybe need to start locking all men up as soon as they grow pubes.