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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to believe, and be heartbroken by Woody Allens step-daughters testimony

499 replies

fromparistoberlin · 03/02/2014 09:01

kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/an-open-letter-from-dylan-farrow/

I read this last night and it just about broke my heart

I believe her, and I am just so saddened by it

How the hell did he not get prosecuted

brave brave girl, and I feel awful as I have watched and enkoyed his films, even knowing of this murky tale in the background

OP posts:
winterkills · 11/02/2014 12:34

You are ignoring the fact that Dylan's allegations of abuse were listened to and investigated so it is not the same as those victims who are not believed or who are deliberately silenced to protect the guilty.

The District Attorney who made the decision not to prosecute WA while pronouncing him 'probably guilty' was himself guilty of a travesty of justice. If he believed that WA was guilty then he had a duty to make him answer for the crime in court.

bumbleymummy · 11/02/2014 13:07

AskBasil, you are contracting yourself.

You say that you don't automatically believe anything and then you say that your default position is to believe someone unless there is good reason not to. That suggests more of a 'guilty until proven innocent' approach.

Just because you don't automatically say 'I believe you' does not mean that you are being dismissive or not listening to people's claims. You just reserving judgement until you have all the information.

AskBasil · 11/02/2014 13:08

Actually his prime duty was the welfare of the child and in this case it was decided that it was not in that child's interests to drag her through a court case.

Lazyjaney · 11/02/2014 13:12

"I don't automatically believe anything, I believe the correct default position re people who say they were abused as children, is to believe them unless there are extremely good reasons not to"

You seem remarkably able to believe everything here despite some extremely good reasons not to.

AskBasil · 11/02/2014 13:16

No bumbles it doesn't.

Believing someone does not translate to not believeing that the accused should legally be considered innocent before the law and that the prosecution should prove its case beyond reasonable doubt.

Otherwise if yr daughter came home and said she was raped, you'd have to hum and haw and wait for the legal system which lets most rapists free, to convict him before believing her, no?

bumbleymummy · 11/02/2014 13:21

AskBasil, so you think you should believe someone even if they might be lying and that lie could ruin someone else's life?

Can I just remind you that you are not Dylan's mother and did not/do not have first hand experience of her account.

higgle · 11/02/2014 13:33

I don't know, and given the evidence we as individuals have I'm certain no one can.

Nomama · 11/02/2014 14:11

Nomama I find it depressing that you think believing a woman who has consistently stuck to her version of events from when she is 7 years old, is the result of automatic assumptions. On the contrary, in our society disbelieving anyone who says they have been raped or sexually abused, is the result of automatic assumptions. On the whole, believing them is the result of having been educated out of automatic assumptions.

Nice to see you read all that I posted, Basil. If you take one part and strip it of context you could indeed make me have said any of the above.

Hopefully others will read what I did type and will stop and think about it before leaping to such conclusions.

winterkills · 11/02/2014 15:58

Actually his prime duty was the welfare of the child and in this case it was decided that it was not in that child's interests to drag her through a court case

How can it be in the victim's best interest not to prosecute the person who is 'probably guilty' of committing a terrible crime against them?

As she had already been put through a gruelling process of medical assessment and questioning they could have used that as evidence.

MothershipG · 11/02/2014 16:00

To all the WA supporters and fence sitters I ask you this...

Let's forget all the names for a minute.

If somebody told you that she had split up from her partner of 10 years because he had started an affair with her teenage daughter from a previous marriage (that he hadn't parented but had known since she was 8), and then that her 7 year old daughter had disclosed to her that her father had sexully abused her, if she then told you that the man in question was already receiving treatment for being inappropriate and obsessive with the 7 year old, how would you react?

Would you think, I bet she's making the child say that because she's angry he's been unfaithful? It's not illegal for him to have an affair with his children's sister, they aren't related by blood after all. Would you say, well it might be true, but unless he is convicted in court I'm not comfortable believing you?

Would you honestly take that position?

If there was no evidence and no conviction but 20 years later the child decided to be open about it because she hoped to help others, would you say that she shouldn't be allowed to talk about it in public, her father was never convicted, in fact it should be a crime for her to continue to make those accusations?

Would you? Really?

Take out the famous names, would that make a difference? Does Dylan have to be silenced because the man she (alleged) abused her is famous and well respected in his field?

A friend of mine, her daughter was raped. It was the classic situation at a house party, she was just 16, it was the older brother of a friend, they'd been flirting earlier in the evening, he cornered her in the bathroom when everyone else was asleep, she said no and tried to push him off, he carried on anyway, but she was too embarrassed, too polite, too much of a good girl to scream and make a big fuss, and not confident enough to get really aggressive with him (which might only had made things worse).

She wouldn't go to the police, blamed herself, the boy wasn't arrested, never mind convicted beyond reasonable doubt. It would be his word against hers, no evidence.

But do you know what? I'm not her mother, I wasn't there, but I do believe her and I see no reason not to give Dylan the same benefit of the doubt.

stopprocrastinating · 11/02/2014 16:24

I believe Dylan

Bogeyface · 11/02/2014 16:28

To all the WA supporters

What?! So because I have said that there is enough inconsitencies to create reasonable doubt over the allegations, means that I am a WA supporter?! NO. Absolutely not.

Just because I am not beating a drum and yelling that because a girl/woman said something it must be true, doesnt mean that I support WA in anyway.

FFS stop twisting things to suit your view of people who dont agree with you.

AskBasil · 11/02/2014 16:31

"How can it be in the victim's best interest not to prosecute the person who is 'probably guilty' of committing a terrible crime against them? "

God, it often is. Masses of rapists aren't prosecuted because however probable it is that they are guilty, we live in a rape culture where it is almost impossible to get a conviction of guilty against a rapist. So there is no point in putting a victim through the re-victimisation process of a criminal trial just in order to have a very probably Not Guilty verdict.

"As she had already been put through a gruelling process of medical assessment and questioning they could have used that as evidence." No, they couldn't. AFAIK the American legal system is similar to our's in that evidence has to be tested, witnesses have to be questioned and in the early 1990's, I'm not sure that the medical assessment and questioning on its own would have been considered robust enough evidence.

MothershipG · 11/02/2014 16:54

Bogey You obviously come under the "fence sitter" category, and I would never suggest otherwise! Please stop twisting what I've said.

BoneyBackJefferson · 11/02/2014 17:10

What do those who think WA is guilty think that everyone should do?

Nomama · 11/02/2014 17:53

TB very honest Mothership, I don't think you are describing the case fully. You have assumed no past oddness on behalf of the mum - and Farrow does have a history with men, married men, ex husbands etc. You would have to factor that in too!

But I am really not on the fence any more. I now officially could not care less.

Both sides are using and being used by the media. They could just shut up and put up, get those hurt the support they require. But no! They just court further misery for a woman who is still struggling with an horrendous childhood. Why? Cos they can, they want to and, at heart, they care more for 'being right', for being the one who is believed, best, the real victim, than doing what is best for other human beings they have, jointly, done much to damage.

Well, all I can say is thank God I do not live in LaLa Land. If that is what being famous and rich does for you I'll stay exactly how I am, thank you!

Bogeyface · 11/02/2014 17:54

A fence sitter in terms of this thread? Nope, not that either.

I dont know whether he did it or not, but I am very suspicious of a) the timing of the allegations and b) the fact that MF made a huge media campaign out of the allegations yet agreed with the prosecutor that the case shouldnt go to court. She said that it would traumatise Dylan, yet Dylan has been all over the media since as the child the WA was alleged to have assualted, how is that (alongside the fact that he was never brought to justice) any less traumatic for her if the assault did indeed happen? Why would MF do that? Because he could get found not guilty, she couild be viewed a vicious ex who fabricated claims to win a custody case and he would be the victim? So perhaps by keeping it out of court and in the papers she could convict him via media and he will always been seen as guilty in peoples minds. If that was indeed her intention then she succeeded, that is exactly what has happened on MN alone. Its a very clever strategy when you think about it, as a court case would have decided the issue one way or another and it would have over and done with. This way it will always be hanging over WA, guilty or not. Had he been convicted he would have served his time and slunk away into obsurity.

Trial by media/MN is what I disagree with. You and others have tried and convicted a man without the evidence. Have your opinion, sure, I have mine. But I dont bandy it about as fact and I dont appreciate being called an abuse apologiser when I am anything but because I said that I was comfortable agreeing with "I believe you Dylan" when there were too many conflicting statements made at the time and since.

Saying that you have misgivings about the allegations and statements does not mean that you would disbelieve any child (or man or woman) who alleges abuse, as I was accused of upthread. That is incredibly insulting to say the least, and a bloody stupid thing to say.

MothershipG · 11/02/2014 18:23

I know I've said this a few times already but nobody seems to take it on board so I feel that I need to say this, yet again...

My opinion is that on the balance of what we know I see no reason to disbelieve Dylan and I've tried to explain what I base this opinion on.

dont bandy it about as fact and I dont appreciate being called an abuse apologiser

I haven't claimed as fact that I know WA committed the abuse. (I admit I may not always have been as diligent with the "allegedlys" as I should but I tried to improve on that front. Smile)

I haven't called anyone a rape apologist.

As to what anyone should do? That's entirely down to the individual and their own conscience.

Bogeyface · 11/02/2014 18:32

You havent called anyone a rape apologist but it is one of the many insults I have recieved on this thread.

dinkydoodah · 11/02/2014 18:36

Excellent post bogeyface. I am very suspicious of the 'no court' decision. As a mother I would not allow anybody to walk away free if I believed these allegations were true. I would not rest until it was 'sorted' properly - especially as the accused was now with my older daughter! DF had already endured a thorough investigation by child abuse experts who categorically stated that 'in their opinion' no abuse had taken place. It seems people on here question those experts assessment - we always know better than the experts right? By MF not doing the right thing years ago both DF And WA are now still suffering. Maybe the WA suffering was the prime intention but for DF it is unforgivable to have not pursued the correct legal route 30 years ago. I will never understand this.

dinkydoodah · 11/02/2014 18:43

I also think some folk are applying a lot of generalisations regarding 'believing' accusers. All claims of child abuse should be taken seriously, absolutely. In this specific case, due to the celebrity status of the folk involved, we know a lot more information already due to the media/legal reports both historically and current therefore we do have a lot more information on which to base our opinion. It is after all only our opinion as sadly we cannot ever know for sure in this case - unless WA confesses.

Lighthousekeeping · 11/02/2014 18:51

What wax he having counselling for? Hasn't he been in therapy all his life?

Animation · 11/02/2014 20:04

"All claims of child abuse should be taken seriously, absolutely."

Absolutely !!

AskBasil · 11/02/2014 20:47

" As a mother I would not allow anybody to walk away free if I believed these allegations were true. I would not rest until it was 'sorted' properly"

Actually I suspect that you as with any of us, as mothers, would put the interests of our child way out before the interests of justice.

If it were not in my child's interests for a case to be taken to court, however angry, bitter and outraged I felt, however much it would stick in the craw to let someone who had damaged her walk away free, I would put her interests first and allow that to happen. And I think any normal parent would, tbh. It's easy to say that you would do x if y happened, but until you've been there and realise what that would actually mean for your child in terms of her emotional and psychological health and long-term recovery, you don't know what you'd do.

perfectstorm · 11/02/2014 20:49

He was in therapy for himself, but he was also in therapy initially because he failed completely to bond with his son. Then the same therapist began treating him for what all parties agreed was a very unhealthy and damaging obsession with Dylan, which made demands upon her that were not in her interests - the reverse. The main criticism you could make of Farrow here - and I do - is in supporting Allen's later adoption of Dylan.

I'm interested that people keep talking about "the timing" of the allegations, as if they were made as soon as the Soon Yi mess emerged. They didn't. Farrow found the images of Soon Yi in mid-January 1992. She then supported contact between Allen and the younger children for months and months afterwards, albeit finding it hard, and only stopped contact after Dylan made the allegations, in August. People are stating that Farrow took this step after finding the images as if that were immediate revenge for the affair, but she didn't: it was 8 months later. Farrow didn't go to the police with her worries, either; she talked to her lawyer, who very sensibly told her to take Dylan to a paediatrician. Farrow specifically said at the time that she didn't know if Dylan was telling the truth and hoped it was a fantasy, but that she sounded convincing - that is in the sworn statement of the therapist treating Allen, Satchel and Dylan, and whose evidence is primarily supportive (in terms of the sexual abuse allegations - she openly acknowledges the treatment was for grossly inappropriate boundaries on Allen's part) of her continued main patient: Allen. There was no assumption on Farrow's part that Allen was guilty, though she said Dylan's version of events sounded frighteningly plausible. That paediatrician reported Allen to the police, as they were legally obligated to do. From that point, it was out of Farrow's hands. She stopped contact between Allen and Dylan, but are people seriously blaming her for that? The police were involved in a child abuse investigation - was she meant to keep going with contact sessions? It's also notable, though people never mention it, that she didn't stop him seeing either of the boys, as long as a nanny was present at those contact sessions. A mother inventing abuse allegations to deprive the father of all contact would be unlikely to send her uninvolved 4 year old on regular contact visits, saying she had to balance his need for his father with protection. The only child she refused to allow contact with was the one at the centre of an outstanding sexual abuse investigation.

Allen keeps saying that he took and passed a lie detector test, while Farrow refused to. What he does not say is that the Connecticut police asked him to take one independently, and he refused. He then got his lawyers to set one up with a provider of his choice, which he passed - and he challenged Farrow to take one with that same provider, which she refused. The police never asked Farrow to take one, as she was not under investigation. So Allen, who himself refused to take an independent lie detector test, is decrying Farrow's refusal to take one he would have set up and controlled while trumpeting his having passed a test. Yet he is the only one of the two who refused to take a police-requested, independently-assessed test.

Allen also says he would never have been in the attic because he's claustrophobic. He insisted that to the police. When they then asked him how his hair had been found on a painting up there, he changed his story and acknowledged he may have gone up after all. It could be a faulty recollection. Or, you know - he could have been lying.

The "expert report" people keep citing has serious problems, which is why the prosecutor and custody trial judge refused to accept it as of much value:

  1. The "experts" people keep citing were in fact an academic social worker, qualified to PhD level, and another with only a Masters in social work. The paediatrician who made up the third person on the panel merely signed it off after the other two had completed their investigation - he never met any of the parties involved. I don't think this is quite the stellar constellation of hugely-experienced child abuse investigators people have in mind, really.

  2. Despite their lack of psychological or psychiatric training, the report appended clinical labels to Dylan, and diagnosed her with a disorder. A child psychiatrist who was brought in to look at the report stated that he disagreed completely with their assessments in this way, and also found no credible evidence to support their statement that she was a fantasist or coached. Their primary evidence for fantasy was Dylan's insistence that "dead heads" were kept in the attic. They never asked any of the family about this, assuming it had to be wrong... and it transpired that Farrow kept all her wigs from past roles up there for the children to play with, on foam mannequin heads. So Dylan was actually not lying or fantasising. She was using childlike language to explain a reality.

  3. The team refused to testify at any stage, stating they had destroyed their notes and therefore could not support their report any further than it stood for itself. The deposition for trial was written by the paediatrician, who had never even met, far less examined, Dylan or Farrow. He further refused to present himself to the court for cross-examination. This is automatic for expert witnesses, because otherwise there is no way that their statements can be tested.

  4. The team disclosed their findings to Allen without any warning that it was confidential medical information concerning a child. He then stood on the steps of the courtroom and held a press conference in which he shared all the information with the media, despite it concerning his vulnerable 7 year old. In this country, that would earn you jail time.

  5. A child psychiatrist with extensive experience in abuse cases found five main problems with the report: that they never witnessed the child interacting with their parents yet made visitation recommendations; that they did not explain or support their (unqualified) diagnosis that Dylan had a thought disorder; that they never even laid eyes on Satchel, yet drew conclusions pertaining to him; that they concluded there had been no abuse without providing justification, and on inconclusive evidence; that they recommended Farrow enter therapy, which was outside their remit and served mainly to support their statement she may have coached Dylan.

The custody trial judge found they had destroyed notes and refused to present themselves to court for questioning, and that they had markedly exceeded their mandate in a way no party had requested or agreed to.

Despite these problems, the paediatrician who had signed off the report (and refused to testify) acknowledged in his deposition that Allen would continue to need treatment if he were to behave appropriately with Dylan. There was not a single professional involved in the case who found his relationship with her anything but troubling - even those on his side. Not one expressed unqualified support for the relationship's being positive.

Nobody knows what happened, for sure. Some believe Dylan, some Allen. But pretending there's no real evidence for abuse here is silly. There was, and is. And it's telling that most of Allen's defences to the accusation are half-truths, at very best. He admitted he went into that attic, so bringing up his claustrophobia as he did last week is disingenuous. Similarly, droning on about the lie-detector test is less than fully candid - because the only person who refused to take a formally requested and independently administered test was Allen. And in terms of his awareness of his own culpability in events, it's also very telling that he is insisting the judge was against him because of the age gap between himself and Soon Yi. He is, still, absolutely unable to grasp the inevitable, catastrophic pain and harm he inflicted on that family - including his own supposedly beloved children - when he embarked upon an affair with their teenage sister, behind the backs of their and her mother. His narcissism in still apparently believing that his wants matter more than his own children's needs is not encouraging.