to believe, and be heartbroken by Woody Allens step-daughters testimony

[fromparistoberlin]

kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/an-open-letter-from-dylan-farrow/

I read this last night and it just about broke my heart

I believe her, and I am just so saddened by it

How the hell did he not get prosecuted

brave brave girl, and I feel awful as I have watched and enkoyed his films, even knowing of this murky tale in the background

Mothership, I think she's most likely mistaken due to a number of factors. First is the incredibly unreliable nature of memory. So many studies have shown that memories can easily be implanted, particularly those that tally with ones own existing beliefs. See for example blog.ted.com/2013/09/23/want-to-know-more-about-the-unreliable-nature-of-memory-read-this/ Dylan was brought up from an early age to think WA was evil, that he did this horrible thing, etc.

I also put a lot of stock into the statement of the medical team who examined her saying that they did not believe she had been molested by WA. I think it's too much of a coincidence that this came out just at the moment when MF was most furious with WA and hated him with such a passion (voodoo valentines card and all). I also think that paedophiles unfortunately tend to have multiple victims while WA has only one accuser. When these things come out the pattern is almost always for several other women to then come forward. Why hasn't that happened in this case?

What WA and Soon Yi did was morally very questionable to say the least but I think it has gotten mixed up in people's minds with this crime. What they did is hard to stomach but it wasn't a crime and the fact that they are still together after al this time has to be at least something in their favour.

Finally, I absolutely love WA's movies and find them quite meaningful as well as very funny. I grew up in the US and part of my family was Jewish and from New York so he was a big presence and influence for us growing up. He laughed at himself and taught me it was okay to do so as well. He's neurotic and doesn't feel the need to hide it. He makes fun of his physical weakness (unlike almost any other leading man of his day) and goes for the goofy neurotic women as well. He talks about serious topics in a lighthearted way. He shows that you don't have to be perfect o be admirable.

If you haven't watched many of his films there are a lot of clips on YouTube and I could watch his movies again and again. I suppose being really honest I don't want to lose that. And I just can't believe someone who makes films that good could do something like this. I just can't.

Bogey So if you don't think Dylan is lying either can I ask you the same questions I posed to Compos at 18:24:28?

mothership I will repeat for the thousandth time what I've already said.

I don't know. There is no compelling evidence either way. I am reserving judgement.

Notjust

I was with you up until "I cant believe that someone who makes films that good...." What an immature attitude! "His movies are really funny so he must be innocent"? Really?!

Ever heard of Roman Polanski?

Mother

Why would she do that? Who knows.

How could she plant a false memory? Very very easily. Google False Memory Syndrome.

No one is calling her a liar, they are saying that she may be the victim of FMS, or brainwashing (her own brother believes that she is) and that alone casts doubt on her allegations.

Bogey well at least you were with me almost to the end! My last statement was emotional rather than logical, i know that. Please read it in context with the rest of what I said.

I have, and I still think its ridiculous!

Its like saying you cant believe Pete Doherty is a drug addict because you love his music!

I personally believe that there is not enough evidence in this case to suggest he is guilty of abuse, but that is based on reading the facts (such as they are) that are available. Its not based on the fact that I thought one of his films was really funny.

Oh Lord

I loved Woody Allen's films too.

And hey, Roman Polanski made some fantastic films. Doesn't change the fact that he's a convicted child rapist and there's no question of it being a wrong verdict.

You do realise how dodgy what you're saying is Notjustacigar? I'm hoping you're taking the piss when you say that you can't believe someone who makes such good films can be a predator. One of the reasons so many men get away with rape, is because people can't believe that someone so talented/ charming/ kind/ fun/ insert positive trait here can also at the same time have a really dark side.

Lots of men couldn't believe Chad Evans was a rapist by the way, on the basis that he'd scored a whole load of goals the previous season and someone with that goal average couldn't possibly be a rapist. Crazy but true.

Ched Evans, sorry.

Here's End Victimisation's rejoinder to that Victoria Coren piece:

everydayvictimblaming.com/submissions/stuck-in-the-middle-with-you-not-so-much/

NotJust This isn't an historical accusation! As Nooka said up thread, she disclosed the alleged abuse at the time, when it happened, no memory required. False memory has no bearing on this.

On what earthly basis do you say that Dylan was brought up to think her father was evil? No one, not even WA himself has said that! And this is the man that agreed to treatment for his inappropriate behaviour towards her.

Why do you put so much stock in a report that was subsequently discredited? Why do you think you know more than the judge?

WA & SY haven't got "mixed up" with the alleged abuse of Dylan, but it is an example of a transgressive relationship so indicates a mind set or attitude.

Finally, you obviously have a lot personally invested in WA and identify with him, so of course you don't want to hear something so terrible about him - but sadly that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Okay, good point, AskBasil. I take back that part of what I said and admit you and Bogeyface are quite right that someone with incredible talent can also be guilty of a terrible crime. Of course they can. I still don't think the evidence is there in this case but I concede your point on that.

"I do understand that, because you're setting up an Aunt Sally in your usual silly way. No-one thinks that "accusation=guilty by default" is a Good Idea and has said that it is"

The only silliness here is thinking that the argument that "I believe her" does not mean "I accuse him" in this case, given she has made a direct accusation. It's simple logic.

Oh, wait.....

Yes notjust all well and good until the last two paragraphs. That was an equally foolish thing to write/think. Every bit as foolish as people saying 'he looks weird and creepy, he is pretentious, his films aren't funny, pseudo intellectuals like his films... therefore he is guilty.

Whether he is guilty or not has nothing to do with whether his films good/bad or indifferent.

As it goes, I like his films too. I have no opinion of him as a human being as I've never met him, don't like some of his reported behaviour.

It has no bearing on how I would feel about someone being tarnished with an unproven (and unprovable) allegation made in fairly extraordinary circumstances 20-odd years ago being taken as gospel fact.

Comps I was after your opinion on the specific aspect of the case that MF coached Dylan, I know you want to reserve judgment on the bigger question, sorry if I wasn't clear.

There are people who grew up in Mia Farrow's household who have stated that they were coached to hate Woody Allen, the inconsistencies detected by the team investigating the abuse and the context in which these allegations were made makes me think that the possibility Dylan Farrow was coached shouldn't be automatically dismissed.

So do you think our automatic response to a woman who says she has been raped should be "I don't believe you" LazyJaney?

Or "well, you might be telling the truth I suppose, but as there's a 4% probability that you're not, I'm going to wait until the criminal justice system, which lets most rapists go free, deals with it before I believe you. If you are one of the 90%+ women who don't get justice, then in all conscience, I'll assume you're a liar, sorry about that".

Yes you're right I have a lot invested in woody alleys films and a better way of putting it is that I think it would be awful if they were thrown away and discounted as the work of a paedophile.

Woody Allen is not Roman Polanski because in that case the evidence was overwhelming and he was convicted. in this case we just cant know and what we therefore choose to believe says a lot more about us than it does about the people involved. in my case it says i love WA movies and have since early childhood. I bonded with my grandparents now deceased over our mutual love of his work. For many others on this thread it says they will always side with the vulnerable against the powerful, and that women who accuse men of rape should be believed. i have a lot of admiration for that point of view as well.

Innocent until proven guilty. For me that's the bottom line. If there is enough evidence for a trial let him be tried but if there isn't (and I'm pretty sure there isn't) then the presumption of innocence should apply, even in a trial by media and public opinion which this is and which we're involved in.

Innocent until proven guilty really isn't appropriate in cases of child sexual abuse.
Partly because of what basil is telling us about the criminal justice system.
When children tell us that they have been abused we need to believe them.
The fact that this doesn't happen is the reason that such abuse continues unaddressed, and will continue thus.
Tragic.

AskBasil

Why are you still flogging this? Are you unable to understand that saying "I dont believe that the evidence is sufficient to prove guilt" is NOT the same as calling Dylan a liar?

In a couple of places earlier there was reference to there having been several accusations against JS, as compared with the single one against WA. Could anyone remind me how many public accusations there were against JS while he was still alive? As far as I remember (and mind you I do have a shocking memory) the main shit hit the fan almost a year after he was put underground - closely followed by all sorts of evidence that had apparently been out in the open all along but nobody had quite put it all together to make 4 (eg the Nolan-groping, the HIGNFY which I think I actually saw at the time, even his own autobiography). Not saying this has a bearing on the WA case, just thought that this was a bit of a non-point, unless I am mistaken.

Have you heard of the Salem Witch Trials? Those women were tried and executed on the basis of witness statements from children. Why do children say things that aren't true? all kinds of reasons, but they sometimes do. And multiple researchers have shown how flimsy memories really are. Sex abuse cases today and the strength of feeling that surround them are very similar I think. Almost impossible to defend against in the publics mind after being accused.

When children tell us that they have been abused we need to believe them

And I do.

But there WILL be times when allegations can not be proven, as in this case.

Saying that I dont feel that the evidence is stong enough to assume his guilt is NOT saying that I disbelieve every child (or adult) who alleges abuse. Some of you seem to think that it is.

AlL this talk of memory being unreliable, and maybe poor Dylan genuinely does remember something happened that actally didn't...

Well, maybe Allen doesn't remember it happening, or has twisted it in his own memory to be something above board and palatable.

Now I'm not suggesting that is the case.

But isn't it strange how some people are far more willing to believe/accept that a child or woman has a warped memory of something, but be far more sceptical when it's a powerful- man...

bogeyface
No. You don't believe them.
Because you want the allegation to be proven before you believe it.
Well, so often that isn't possible.

Japanese

My own view comes from reading a lot of information about the case, which points to the fact that there is something very wrong here. There are too many discrepencies, which coupled with the absolute hatred MF had and still has for him could indicate that there is something amiss with Dylans recollections, possibly as a result of pressure or coaching from her mother. We dont know, but many of us are saying that it is possible.

Either way, Dylan has been abused. Either sexually by WA or if those allegations are untrue then she has been abused emotionally by MF.