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AIBU?

to believe, and be heartbroken by Woody Allens step-daughters testimony

499 replies

fromparistoberlin · 03/02/2014 09:01

kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/an-open-letter-from-dylan-farrow/

I read this last night and it just about broke my heart

I believe her, and I am just so saddened by it

How the hell did he not get prosecuted

brave brave girl, and I feel awful as I have watched and enkoyed his films, even knowing of this murky tale in the background

OP posts:
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AskBasil · 18/02/2014 22:41

Olympias, he didn't go through a public trial.

Most rapists and child abusers don't.

Of course it's a disincentive, but the likelihood of it happening is low. The likelihood of the victim being disbelieved, is high. Most rapists don't get shunned or publicly disgraced - unless they are found guilty (94% aren't) they are generally showered with public sympathy for having been a victim of false allegations.

Abusers know this. Like any risk/ benefit analysis, the risk is so low that some abusers take the risk and most are correct in believing that they'll get away with it.

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Olympias · 18/02/2014 15:20

AskBasil,

In order to get to the point where the jury will take an abuser's side, the abuser must be brought to trial first.
So are you saying then that for someone like WA, who is intensely private, neurotic, respectable, and famous, going through the humliation and public scandal of a child abuse trial wouldn't be any deterrent at all,
as long as he knows he will be acquitted at the end?

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AskBasil · 18/02/2014 09:11

"You can't have it all ways mothership - according to your many previous posts WA was considered by MF to be a threat to DF to the point that she had stipulated he must never be left alone with her, was in therapy because of his 'inappropriate' behaviour towards her, had shown himself capable of 'transgression' by his affair with SY. Why on earth would Dylan not be believed?"

Doesn't matter if it's the victim's mother or even prosecuter who believes her.

It's the jury that counts and seeing as how the jury is made up of ordinary members of the public, every abuser knows that the people who really count won't believe the victim. Juries are drawn from the public and the public is steeped in rape myths. So in most cases, an abuser calculates that even if the prosecuter/ CPS believes the victim, they have to make the calculation as to whether a jury will believe the victim and in most cases, the answer is no.

This bears repeating over and over again because it is the kneejerk disbelief of victims, which is largely responsible for the fact that the vast majority of rapists and child abusers get clean away with their abuse and go on to have happy rewarding lives while their victims deal with the fall-out of their behaviour. That fact is the impetus behind the I believe her campaign.

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perfectstorm · 18/02/2014 06:21

the district attorney dared to state that he was 'probably guilty'

He didn't say that. He said there was "probable cause".

"Probable cause" is the term used for the threshold of prosecution in the USA. Over here, the police send a file to the Crown Prosecution Service: they have to decide whether prosecution is in the public interest, and then whether there is "a reasonable prospect of conviction" - or, more simply, if there's a sensible chance that a court might decide to convict; not that they will or should, just that sufficient evidence is there for it to proceed to that stage. In the USA, the term is "probable cause" The prosecutor was simply saying that the evidence was strong enough for the case to go to trial and for a jury to make their own determinations, but he decided against because of the stress it would cause Dylan Farrow. The prosecutor never said Allen was "probably guilty" or anything remotely approaching that - he said there was "probable cause". The latter is far, far less emphatic. He was saying that there was, in his opinion, sufficient evidence to put before a jury; he wasn't pre-empting what verdict that jury might have reached.

And the custody judge didn't "refuse to accept evidence". He just stated that the flaws in that evidence were such as to render it less than wholly reliable. That was his job. The flaws he found were to do with the way the investigation had been conducted, which is reasonable, surely?

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winterkills · 17/02/2014 12:08

And finally WA is no fool, he knew Dylan wouldn't be believed if she told and he wasn't wrong, was he?

You can't have it all ways mothership - according to your many previous posts WA was considered by MF to be a threat to DF to the point that she had stipulated he must never be left alone with her, was in therapy because of his 'inappropriate' behaviour towards her, had shown himself capable of 'transgression' by his affair with SY. Why on earth would Dylan not be believed?

How was WA 'not wrong'? The custody Judge refused to accept evidence which supported his claim of innocence, the district attorney dared to state that he was 'probably guilty' while refusing to allow a fair trial and he was subjected to a total onslaught of negative publicity.

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Lazyjaney · 17/02/2014 08:44

"Dylan Farrow's open letter contradicts "Allen-v-Farrow-Custody-Ruling" doc on important points, which for me makes her motives and/or recollections somewhat suspect"

Ah, but you are reading the evidence without deciding you believe her first.

if you approach this from the pov that WA is as guilty as sin, then selection bias makes all these inconvenient contradictions go away :)

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Olympias · 17/02/2014 08:32

Re: In her open letter Dylan reports disclosing to her mother, she make no claim to have initiated the conversation, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion?

That:
" These things happened so often, so routinely, so SKILLFULLY HIDDEN ..."

and

"But what he did to me in the attic felt different. I couldn’t keep the secret anymore. When I asked my mother if her dad did to her what Woody Allen did to me, I honestly did not know the answer. I also didn’t know the firestorm it would trigger."

You may interpret it differently, of course.
But the obvious interpretation for an uniformed reader of the letter(the reader that hasn't read the ruling and doesn't know the details) would be:
Scheming paedophile WA did sexual things to DF for a long time and he managed to keep it a secret. At last WA did something beyond anything that went before, so DF couldn't keep it a secret. She asked her mother about it and it triggered the rest.

RE: Same as any other perpetrator, it was a risk he would take... And finally WA is no fool, he knew Dylan wouldn't be believed if she told.

Really? Under that set of circumstances? When he was openly hated by the whole family? After Mia affixed the note "Child Molester" to his room door a month prior this is also in the doc.)?

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MothershipG · 17/02/2014 08:08

why did not Dylan initiate the conversation about it with anybody?

I don't expect many 7 year olds would find it easy to initiate a conversation about sexual abuse from their father. So when Mia asked about the lap incident that was reported to her this begun the conversation about inappropriate touching that allowed Dylan to disclose the escalation that had (allegedly) occurred in the attic. That seems pretty straight forward to me.

In her open letter Dylan reports disclosing to her mother, she make no claim to have initiated the conversation, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion?

How could WA know for sure Dylan wouldn't tell? He never did anything that bad to her before, so wouldn't know how she will react. He maybe self-absorbed and narcissistic but not a fool.

Same as any other perpetrator, it was a risk he would take, he had gradually been escalating and normalising his obsessive and inappropriate behaviour towards Dylan. Dylan had tried to avoid him, WA was in therapy about it, MF had given instructions that he was never to be alone with her. Dylan actually had to ask if this was normal behaviour so she obviously had a thoroughly skewed idea of how fathers are supposed to 'dote'.

And finally WA is no fool, he knew Dylan wouldn't be believed if she told and he wasn't wrong, was he?

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Olympias · 16/02/2014 22:01

Dylan Farrow's open letter contradicts "Allen-v-Farrow-Custody-Ruling" doc on important points, which for me makes her motives and/or recollections somewhat suspect.

(1) Dylan Farrow describes WA's inappropriate behaviour towards her that took place prior to Aug 4th 1992 sexual abuse incident:

"For as long as I could remember, my father had been doing things to me that I didn’t like. I didn’t like how often he would take me away from my mom, siblings and friends to be alone with him. I didn’t like it when he would stick his thumb in my mouth. I didn’t like it when I had to get in bed with him under the sheets when he was in his underwear. I didn’t like it when he would place his head in my naked lap and breathe in and breathe out. I would hide under beds or lock myself in the bathroom to avoid these encounters, but he always found me. These things happened so often, so routinely, so skillfully hidden from a mother that would have protected me had she known, that I thought it was normal"

The paragraph leads the reader to believe that even before the 4th of August incident of child abuse WA exhibited a typical paedophile behaviour doing sexual things to the child and making sure they are not detected. And shows Mia as a protective mother who would never let it happen if she'd known. That's not what the ruling says.

According to the ruling, the described behaviour had been known to Mia Farrow for years. She became “concerned with Mr. Allen’s behaviour towards Dylan” around 1987-1988. “During a trip to Paris, when Dylan was between two and three years old, Ms. Farrow told Mr. Allen that ‘[y]ou look at her [Dylan] in a sexual way,’” according to the decision. “You fondled her. It’s not natural. You’re all over her. You don’t give her any breathing room. You look at her when she’s naked.” She was suspicious of Allen because he’d read to Dylan in bed while in his underwear and permitted “[Dylan] to suck on his thumb.” Mia Farrow, her longtime friend Casey Pascal, Sophie Raven (Dylan’s French tutor), and Dr. Susan Coates, a clinical psychologist who treated Satchel, all testified that Allen “focused on Dylan to the exclusion of her siblings.” In the fall of 1990, when Farrow asked Dr. Coates to evaluate Dylan to see if she needed therapy, Farrow “expressed her concern” that “Allen’s behaviour with Dylan was not appropriate.”

(2) Dylan Farrow describes the revelation of the Aug 4th abuse incident:

"But what he did to me in the attic felt different. I couldn’t keep the secret anymore. When I asked my mother if her dad did to her what Woody Allen did to me, I honestly did not know the answer. I also didn’t know the firestorm it would trigger."

The paragraph implies that Dylan was so traumatised with what happened in the attic that she went to Mia and told her of the abuse which caused the subsequent chain of events. That's not what happened according to the ruling description of the events.

According to the ruling,
On Aug 4th, Allen traveled to Farrow’s country home in Connecticut to spend time with the children. At the home was Allen; Casey Pascal (Farrow’s friend) and her three children; the Pascal nanny, Alison Stickland; Kristie Groteke, a babysitter employed by Farrow in the day, Stickland says she “observed Mr. Allen kneeling with his head on her lap, facing her body. Dylan was sitting on the couch staring vacantly in the direction of a television set.” When Farrow returned home, Berge noticed Dylan “was not wearing anything under her sundress” so Farrow had Groteke put underpants on Dylan. That evening, Stickland claims she told Pascal that she “had seen something at Mia’s that day that was bothering me,” and told of the TV room observation. The next day, Pascal phoned Farrow and told her of Stickland’s statements. After the Pascal call, Farrow asked Dylan who set next to her “whether it was true that daddy had his face in her lap yesterday,” Dylan said yes and described WA highly inappropriate behaviour. Farrow then videotaped Dylan’s statements over the next twenty-four hours.

The second discrepancy is especially troubling.
Consider ...
Dylan was an articulate 7 year old (not a pre-speach toddler);
The event was so horrendous she has been feeling the repercussions all these years("To this day, I find it difficult to look at toy trains");
All out sexual abuse happened for the first time that day according to DF letter and the ruling.

So now I have these questions

why did not Dylan initiate the conversation about it with anybody?

why in the open letter adult Dylan said she did in fact tell her mother (when she asked her if it was normal)?

How could WA know for sure Dylan wouldn't tell? He never did anything that bad to her before, so wouldn't know how she will react. He maybe self-absorbed and narcissistic but not a fool.

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MothershipG · 15/02/2014 17:42

To answer your point BB and at the risk of boring Bogey et al. by restating this for the umpteenth time...

Those of us who are not desperate to exhonerate WA are not 'totally satisfied that there cannot be any more evidence' we are just saying that what is currently in the public domain - including the court documents, leads us to form an OPINION (not convicting, not saying we know this to be fact, not saying MF is a saint) that Dylan is not lying or brainwashed.

We are not a court of law, we are just a bunch of random people, so there is no necessity for it to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt before we support someone who self-describes as a survivor of abuse.

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Nomama · 15/02/2014 17:24

Not everyone, babybarrister, honest.

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babybarrister · 15/02/2014 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AskBasil · 15/02/2014 14:49

No one here has recommended that people ignore evidence that shows abuse didn't happen.

They've merely pointed out that the evidence that shows abuse didn't happen in this case, may not be as strong as the evidence that shows abuse did happen. And they have pointed to statistical probabilities. And because some states have the statute of limitation on certain crimes this alleged one will never be tested and a jury won't have the opportunity to test which evidence is stronger beyond reasonable doubt.

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Lazyjaney · 15/02/2014 12:36

"No lazeyjane that was much more complicated than believing a lie"

It wasn't really - this was what the person who headed up the inquiry summarised the problem as:

"Social workers actually start at the point of believing the abuse has actually occurred, and then looking for evidence to prove it, and disregarding evidence which might show that, in fact, the parents are innocent."

Replace Social Workers with MN "I believers" and parents with WA, and you have this thread in a nutshell.

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TheRealAmandaClarke · 15/02/2014 12:24

No lazeyjane that was much more complicated than believing a lie.

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Nomama · 15/02/2014 11:16

^Well it's really no wonder that children are being repeatedly abused tbh.
And it will continue with countless others.^

Pardon? Some people do not agree with your black and white, no room for argument, opinion and so that will be the cause of continued abuse?


And Yes, i have also read pretty much everything available.

Really? You seem to have chosen to discard anything that does not agree with your own thoughts. I linked to some very well respected research and you counter it with.... "yeah! That's why abuse will continue!"

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Lazyjaney · 15/02/2014 10:32

Amanda a "belief in believing" mindset is the sort of catalyst that lets scandals like Cleveland occur.

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TheRealAmandaClarke · 15/02/2014 10:10

Well it's really no wonder that children are being repeatedly abused tbh.
And it will continue with countless others.

I have nothing to add.
I believe her.


And Yes, i have also read pretty much everything available.

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Nomama · 15/02/2014 09:38

Did you look at any of the studies I linked to, Amanda?

Children, very young children, can and do lie about sexual abuse, for a wide variety of reasons.

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TheRealAmandaClarke · 14/02/2014 20:30

Am not saying that children never lie.
I am saying that young children who make disclosures of sexual abuse are extremely unlikely to be lying.
You can't apply the same rules to an adult as a child on this matter.

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usuallyright · 14/02/2014 18:35

I've read everything which is in the public domain about this and think the only possible explanation is that WA did what Dylan says he did. But I strongly suspect he doesn't think there was anything wrong with it.

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Nomama · 14/02/2014 18:26

Oh Amanda..... that is a dangerous stance. I can think of a few wholly legitimate websites and academic papers that can show you the very real dangers of it - a quick Google will bring up a few free to read ones, for example

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2856485/

I don't have much experience in child psychology, but I do know that no psychologist would ever claim anything so stark. Children most certainly do lie about some very 'big' topics, for a host of reasons, not all abusive.

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TheRealAmandaClarke · 14/02/2014 07:24

Based on what we understand about children's language, experience and psychology, It simply isn't logical or reasonable to subject a child's disclosure of sexual abuse to the same "scrutiny" of intent (ie, the understanding that ppl lie) as the testimony of an adult.
If a 5 you child tells you that Dave has been against her and Dave says "no I haven't" there is almost no probability that the child is lying. But a very high probability that Dave is. No matter how hard it is for dave's family and friends to hear that.
If there is detail in the child's account, unless there is a water tight alibi for Dave then he did it. Those rules don't neccessarily apply to adults making accusations against each other. Adult and child psychologies are not the same.

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AskBasil · 13/02/2014 21:08

How extraordinary, of course I know people lie.

I just haven't been given a good enough reason to believe that DF and MF have bucked the trend and done so.

We know of course that men have more reason to lie about rape than women do, talking of lying.

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Bogeyface · 13/02/2014 17:48

I dont understand why some you (BAsil!) simply cannot accept that sometimes, people lie. That sometimes they exaggerate or manipulate.

If you accept that WA is capable of that then you must also accept that DF and MF are also capable of that. Until you, or any of us, have the full facts at our disposal we simply cannot say that WA did what he is accused of. Why cant you accept that? Why are so determined to continue this trial by hearsay?

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