To want to offer up to all the fat shamers...

[WichitaLineman]

... On mumsnet who peddle the old "fat people are lazy and lack will -power" or proffer their simplistic formula of "eat less, move more" an incredibly succinct description of food addiction by Marcus Brigstocke. I will admit that that sentence isn't quite so succinct

"Eating is different [from drug addiction]; it's dirty, it's horrible - you do it on your own and you wear it. [With] alcohol and drugs, you have moments of sobriety, [but] you don't stop being fat. You wear it; everyone can see it - it is a brand… an overcoat of shame for everyone to see.

"You despise yourself, you make promises to yourself, you say 'I had a bad day, that was bad but that means this is baseline and I can start', then you go and break those promises and do it again, and worse.

"Eating disorders are more pervasive and subtle [than alcohol and drugs] and availability and acceptability are much higher... the ”high“ comes from the totally full-up feeling ”It is an anaesthetic. You lie like a python digesting what you have, it slows your brain down and you are physically inert. Numb and dull, that is the feeling you get."

Whilst I am not saying that every obese person is a compulsive overeater, I wold wager that most are, including myself. This has resonated with me and is the best description I have read of the self-loathing involved in compulsive overeating. It is a faulty mechanism to deal with emotional pain and the fat shamers can't cause any more shame than we already feel for ourselves.

Whilst there are many people on mn who are understanding, I am always appalled by those who aren't. Please think on this when those threads come up. Thank you.

I'm not saying you're wrong, everlong, just that there might be stuff going on with her that she's managed to hide.

I had no idea that my DSis was self-harming when she was a teenager. She seemed fine, but she really wasn't.

Obviously, I would rather your sister was happy and not hiding anything, but you just never know with people, even those we're closest to.

Piscivorus - exactly, I think often people who are obese feel they need to hold back a certain amount of how they are feeling to for fear of being judged or just met with the "well do something about it" attitudes.

Like you it was only when I gave up dieting, and was in a place I could really step back and take control that I have managed to change things. Its not about dieting, its about being able to change your whole lifestyle which isn't an easy thing to do after years of living a certain way

Coke, heroin,cigarette and alcohol addicts ADMIT they enjoy their chosen addiction food addicts just make excuses? WHY?

What a load of bollocks. I would say anyone properly addicted to any of the above who say they enjoy it are in denial and saying they enjoy it means they don't have to face up to the enormity of dealing with it.

Partridge you are so right. At my worst (again in my 20s), it was sometimes toss a coin whether or not I binged with food or sunk 2+ bottles of wine.

Alcohol is another thing I have to be very mindful about as I've abused it massively in the past.

So it's not always all about the food, at all.

Sobbing I'd be amazed to hear you do have personal experience of eating disorders given what you've said on this thread.

I accept that there may be people who are obese and overeat because they simply love bad food and don't exercise...

But what this thread hopefully shows you is that there are many people for which this just isn't the case.

Saying that people of the first category exist doesn't negate the fact that people of the second category also exist.

And chucking health and obesity statistics and judgement at them aint going to help at all.

Everlong - not saying you are not right about your sister but mines was the same and then she told me one day she was an alcoholic. You never know everything that's going on with folk.

It appears that the only comments welcome are those that agree with the OP.

I don't know what you think the op wants your agreement on? The authenticity of her experience? And that of the other people on this thread who have identified with it?

Surely you can't argue with that?

Or are you saying that the op is lying?

Slickrick agreeing with the op means simply not being nasty to overweight people. Why would anyone not agree?

Just an observation.

Can you explain your observation though? I think the op only disagreed with about 2 posts (there was a post down thread that said this) and the majority of other people agreed with her that they were ill thought out, nasty posts.

Wow, very interesting and moving thread; well worth reading all 463 posts!

I was studying an extract from Nelson Mandela's book with a class today and talking about the bit where he says he realised that all people, black and white, are not free and that the oppressed are as trapped as the oppressors - by their hatred. He wanted to help everybody.

It strikes me that fat shaming is kind of similar. Fat shamers are, in their own way, just as trapped as fat people. The message of society that thin is good and fat is bad is so ingrained that it's difficult to over-ride.

I have anorexia. I don't hate food (in fact, I love it and think about it all the time!) and I love the feeling of false control that I have in pretending that I don't want it, undereating and being underweight. It gives my life added interest and purpose and is a definite emotional crutch.

I can absolutely see that COE is the same disorder that has taken a different turn. Yet, I rarely feel shamed because of my size (I'm stable at only just over a stone underweight these days but still far thinner than is conventionally attractive) and sometimes even find people compliment me. Sometimes people will make comments like 'just eat a sandwich' and 'why can't you just eat more' but it's quite rare and probably nothing like what fat people experience on a daily basis.

Anorexia comes with both an internal and external feeling of superiority over COE. Our behaviour is just as damaging and, logically, just as 'disgusting' but because it is seen as being about denial not indulgence we see ourselves as somehow better and so does the world at large. I think.

One really fucked up thing is that, on the occasions that I do overeat, I make myself sick. And that, in my head, is less disgusting that eating it and not throwing up. Which is really twisted. But I do wonder whether society in general would agree with that faulty logic. Which is scary.

Wow manic. That is a really honest post - thank you. Very brave.

article on psychologytoday that overlaps with this discussion (whether people agree or not)

I saw that. I think the big problem with that article is that they are not addressing the psychology of obesity. They are not offering any suggestions for dealing with it.

The premise seems simplistic - and I agree in a way that just saying, "you are obese and you have an illness beyond your control" is defeatist in much the same way that blaming it on heavy bones or glands is defeatist.

However if you explain the mechanism behind the psychology of obesity and addiction and ways in which to address it you may open up a whole world of possibilities to the control group.

Interesting article though.

Hi everyone,

We know that AIBU does tend to get a bit heated, and we welcome both sides of the debate, but we'd just like to remind you to post within our guidelines.

Addiction I'm sure can be an issue. It is not, however, a 'one size fits all' reason for justifying choosing to not take action to deal with that. Dealing with addiction is not easy, but does require motivation from the individual. There's also no point in pretending that it's not worth the effort to break the cycle of addiction when there is a mass of evidence demonstrating that being obese is very bad for you. Obviously there's a huge difference between understanding that and throwing abuse at obese people. I am surprised that some people seem to think that people don't get abuse shouted at them for being, say, an alcoholic, or a drug addict. Actually, lots of nasty people just love any excuse to hurl abuse at people they perceive as either vulnerable or different. What's really obvious here is that everyone's experiences are different. Telling people you know it all because you've been there is only ever going to be somewhat true, and telling people they're glad they're not your sister simply because they offer a more informed opinion on their own sister than someone who doesn't know her at all ever possibly could is simply absurd. There's nobody here that has all the answers. I've been both morbidly obese and dangerously underweight, and my relationship with food is not a particularly healthy one. However, I totally reject that there's nothing I can do about it just because it is very hard to keep it in check, and similarly reject the criticism of those who mention health problems or the basic mechanics of nutrition. While of course things should be addressed constructively, pretending that these issues are of no relevance is completely absurd and also disingenuous.

I don't think anyone has said that it 'isn't worth' breaking the cycle of addiction UncleT, just talked about how difficult it is to break given that the bonds are psychological and chemical not just habitual.

^ this, from manic. UncleT please point us all to where anyone said that they choose not to take any action to deal with obesity because it is due to addiction

Sleepwhenidie - I've seen (and been helped by) your posts before... do you know if anything happened about an eating disorders section?

sleep in several hundred posts an impression can obviously be formed without my words needing to be a direct quote from a particular person, particularly when actually all I'm doing is providing my own view. All I'm really saying is that yes, it is far more complex than just telling someone to eat less, but that in itself really doesn't mean that advice about health impact and so on isn't either relevant or necessary, for example. Several posters labeled such concerns as 'clap trap' for example, when in fact it's not - it's actually the context and manner of such advice that is the issue there. Vital distinction. The fact that I state my own view, politely and calmly, and am immediately subject to a very defensive reaction kind of underlines what I am getting at. Recent research reported in the media a couple of days ago made for interesting reading, as it examined the physical consequences of labelling obesity as a disease. The strong conclusion was that it appeared to have a significant impact on the efforts people made to lose weight, with those viewing it as a physical trait that can be controlled performing much better than their counterparts. I personally think that while recognising and addressing the fact that there are many and varied complicating factors contributing to obesity problems, it's vital that we don't lose sight of the fact that being seriously overweight is very harmful to health. Both are completely relevant sides of the same coin.

Really relate to your post. My issues with food very obviously stem from my mum being controlling about it when I lived at home, and then not having a clue when I left home. Struggling to lose weight. I would need to lose 3 and a half stone to get back to where I was, and I've already lost a stone since beginning of 2014.

goodness, I keep looking for it (not quite sure if it would go in MH/general health/weight loss, if only for visibility ), but haven't seen anything. Maybe we should report this thread and request again?

Goodness - I have reported your last post to MN and requested a topic specifically for disordered eating.