To want to offer up to all the fat shamers...

[WichitaLineman]

... On mumsnet who peddle the old "fat people are lazy and lack will -power" or proffer their simplistic formula of "eat less, move more" an incredibly succinct description of food addiction by Marcus Brigstocke. I will admit that that sentence isn't quite so succinct

"Eating is different [from drug addiction]; it's dirty, it's horrible - you do it on your own and you wear it. [With] alcohol and drugs, you have moments of sobriety, [but] you don't stop being fat. You wear it; everyone can see it - it is a brand… an overcoat of shame for everyone to see.

"You despise yourself, you make promises to yourself, you say 'I had a bad day, that was bad but that means this is baseline and I can start', then you go and break those promises and do it again, and worse.

"Eating disorders are more pervasive and subtle [than alcohol and drugs] and availability and acceptability are much higher... the ”high“ comes from the totally full-up feeling ”It is an anaesthetic. You lie like a python digesting what you have, it slows your brain down and you are physically inert. Numb and dull, that is the feeling you get."

Whilst I am not saying that every obese person is a compulsive overeater, I wold wager that most are, including myself. This has resonated with me and is the best description I have read of the self-loathing involved in compulsive overeating. It is a faulty mechanism to deal with emotional pain and the fat shamers can't cause any more shame than we already feel for ourselves.

Whilst there are many people on mn who are understanding, I am always appalled by those who aren't. Please think on this when those threads come up. Thank you.

This is a good thread.

I have an emotional problem with food, I eat chocolate excessively, I eat while I'm making tea, I eat in the evenings. This is when I feel bored/depressed/sad/angry/stressed.

I'm educated in regards to healthy eating, cooking, portion sizes, and so on, yet I continue to harm myself in this way. I have been aware that my eating is unrelated to hunger for a while now, yet I am not ready to tackle this yet.

I'd be interested to know whether CBT could help tackle this, as it has helped me through depression quite a bit.

Suskia you are being ridiculously simplistic and disablist.

What if he did have a condition that caused his teeth to be discoloured - like too much fluoride as a kid. You are judging someone on their appearance and conflating that with their ability to do a job. Disgusting. Just leave this mainly supportive thread if you find it so "hysterical".

Nice of you to laugh at other people's distress.

I'm a bit hesitant to post this as I don't want to inadvertently contribute to any blaming or derailing of what has been a very reasoned and informative thread.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to say that someone's physical health/fitness is a bar to doing a particular job. We have legislation in place so that employers assist those with limitations rather than discriminate against them. Quite rightly so. In many, many employment roles a person's appearance/physical ability has no bearing on their ability to perform the job well given the right support. I don't think any right-minded individual would disagree with that.

If you accept that compulsive over-eating is a mental disorder, then being obese may not be the fault of the individual in the same way that being in a wheelchair is not the fault of the individual affected by a spinal injury. However, that does nothing to change the fact that some employment roles do require a certain degree of physical ability and being morbidly obese would affect someone's ability to do that job effectively. In some cases, there is a case for saying that the personal characteristics of someone in a public-facing role is as much an essential requirement as their qualification. It's one of the reasons why some jobs have fitness tests, rules about tattoos, barriers on certain political affiliation and criminal records, and may take into account your medical history and credit rating.

I don't think it's discriminatory to have those policies - who would take a police officer arresting a black man seriously if he had a criminal record and a visible BNP tattoo, for example. Is expecting a health professional who lectures you about your lifestyle to lead by example very much different?

However, where we come unstuck on this is that many of those things are governed by personal choice and action and disabilities are protected characteristics, whereas EDs are involuntary and are not protected. And maybe that is what needs to change if we are going to eradicate fat shaming. Maybe we need a real push to equate obesity with EDs so that someone who is morbidly obese is recognised as having a disorder with the same ease at which someone using an inhaler is recognised as being asthmatic - i.e. they have a potentially life-limiting condition that affects their health but is in no way reflective of them as a person.

I'll read properly later scar, but the app has put weird ampersands in all your quotes so it is very hard.

In brief, I may have some insight but as I am obviously still struggling with this I am not claiming to have the answers.

I hope you haven't dissected my posts too forensically as my train of thought obviously evolves and I don't think that is very fair. This thread has been running heatedly for 2 days and I do not want the naysayers to have a chance to jump on every inconsistency in what is meant to be a very honest account of where I am at. Apologies if I have misinterpreted what you have written, and thank you if it is written from a supportive place.

Addiction is a many faceted beast and it doesn't always play out to a strict formula.

Dahlen I agree. But not necessarily in this instance. A police officer requires a certain level of fitness to pursue a criminal, not to be an 'advert' for that profession.

If a nurse can walk and is proficient at her job then she should not be discriminated against.

Everlong, the dictionary definition of condone is:

accept (behaviour that is considered morally wrong or offensive).

I am sure you do not mean to suggest that fat people are morally wrong or offensive. Or do you?

Dahlen - the problem is that I (and many others too I suspect) struggle to accept health advice from someone who is not taking that health advice themselves.

Given that the obesity epidemic could bankrupt the NHS I think it is perfectly legitimate to question why so many workers within the NHS are so very overweight.

Great thread OP. I am morbidly obese, have low self esteem, do enjoy food but suffer from the compulsive element which rules my life and revolts me as so much energy and time and resources are drained by complying with the compulsion. Which makes me miserable.

Anyone who knows me would say I am a happy, jolly person who simply over indulges due to enjoying a lavish approach to food. Wrong. I also sabotage myself and my good resolutions, and when I am stressed the compulsion takes over to the extent that my life revolves around complying with the compulsion. It is an ongoing cycle from which there is no relief, and rarely any enjoyment.

I like the quote too, about wearing the shame.

Sobbing why would you do that at all? Come onto a 300-post thread and just shoot your mouth off without even bothering to read. Incredible.

You start by challenging this negative comment first of all, and reply "well actually I am worth it because I (here you insert all the good things about you and yes, you will have to sit down and have a good think about these good things
I have great difficulty with this, having been brought up very much with the idea of bragging being the worst thing you can do. You never even admit to competence, because it would make you big-headed. I find it very, very difficult, even now, to say I'm particularly good at anything. I makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

suskia if you have a problem accepting scientifically backed advice because of the appearance of the person passing it on then I would suggest that you really do have a problem and you should try and deal with it.

sports people are regularly coached by people not as skilled as themselves. Musicians receive lessons from people who cannot perform as they can. Teachers very often teach students brighter than they are.

Do you seriously think that someone cannot pass on health advice while suffering from disease? Or is it more that you simply think fat people have nothing to say that you would deign to be worth listening to?

Ice Being

You said because of the appearance of the person
Who said anything about appearance?
It has nothing whatsoever to do with appearance - it has to do with health. And health is what nurses trade in.

Do you seriously think that an obese person can effectively lecture a patient on healthy eating and blood pressure when they are at greater risk of those problems themselves?
Obesity isn't about what people look like it is about the massively increased risks of cancer and diabetes and heart disease.
Most nurses I imagine would prefer it if people avoided developing those diseases.

In twenty years time avoidable diabetes alone will cost the NHS £17billion a year. It is essential we tackle this crisis head on with increased funding for weight loss programmes - including gb surgery if that is what it takes and many MANY more counselling and psych services.

HCP's often work brutal shift rotations. It makes you very tired. A mars bar or macdonalds at 4am makes all the difference, if helps you kept going when you are physically ill from tiredness.

I have to work hard to keep to a reasonably healthy weight by exercising and not eating much - but on nightshift you need to eat to get through and many colleagues are very overweight. They are good at their jobs though.

wichita the post by pleasenoscar above contains one suggestion that really stood out to me and it's something I wanted to say much earlier on, but I can tell it probably won't be something you want to consider...but..telling your husband about all this and letting him support you would (IMHO) make a huge difference - secrets like this keep you in a state of stress and no amount of therapy will set you free to heal.

There's also the carb craving after a block of nightshift and comfort eating to alleviate anxiety brought about by sleep depravation and a stressful job.

suskia fat doesn't always mean unhealthy. You ARE judging on appearance as you know nothing of the persons health or background.

A nurse that used to weigh 30 stone and conquered her eating addiction and is seeing you now at 20 stone might be the most informed best advocate for healthy eating advice EVER. But all you do is look and say 'well you must know fuck all coz you're fat'.

Do you see how you are totally and utterly in the wrong?

Working nightshift screws up your metabolism completely. Working against natural circadian rhythms, disturbed and reduced sleep, staying awake when you are biologically meant to be sleeping - it is virtually impossible to manage weight issues effectively if you do shift work.

Oh shit really ever? I didn't realise you doubted it....

well that changes everything. Maybe you could publish some sort of list of things you believe and don't believe so that we can stop spending so much of tax payers money on finding out what is actually true....

ever oh and you have been stalking this person to make sure they don't work a second job? or have a caring role in their family that forces them into a lot of night work? Maybe you also followed their home life as a child to scope out possible abuse etc.

I am sure you would be very thorough in your evidence collecting before deciding whether people do or do not have 'just cause' to be as fat as they are.

Is there a badge?

Something that the deserving fat can wear?

Maybe a T-shirt saying "this fatness approved by everlong"

They would be like gold dust....till some poor sod puts one on ebay...

Shifts do make it harder (not just the it fucks up your body way)
I've just done 4 lates with one day off straight into 3 earlies. Am shattered, trying to fit in 5/6hrs exercise, prep all my food and do usual cleaning etc when my body is telling me it's sleep time

I think, as with all things, there will be some people for whom shift work makes no difference, some for whom they gain the average weight gain of shift workers and some who react far more extremely.