To want to offer up to all the fat shamers...

[WichitaLineman]

... On mumsnet who peddle the old "fat people are lazy and lack will -power" or proffer their simplistic formula of "eat less, move more" an incredibly succinct description of food addiction by Marcus Brigstocke. I will admit that that sentence isn't quite so succinct

"Eating is different [from drug addiction]; it's dirty, it's horrible - you do it on your own and you wear it. [With] alcohol and drugs, you have moments of sobriety, [but] you don't stop being fat. You wear it; everyone can see it - it is a brand… an overcoat of shame for everyone to see.

"You despise yourself, you make promises to yourself, you say 'I had a bad day, that was bad but that means this is baseline and I can start', then you go and break those promises and do it again, and worse.

"Eating disorders are more pervasive and subtle [than alcohol and drugs] and availability and acceptability are much higher... the ”high“ comes from the totally full-up feeling ”It is an anaesthetic. You lie like a python digesting what you have, it slows your brain down and you are physically inert. Numb and dull, that is the feeling you get."

Whilst I am not saying that every obese person is a compulsive overeater, I wold wager that most are, including myself. This has resonated with me and is the best description I have read of the self-loathing involved in compulsive overeating. It is a faulty mechanism to deal with emotional pain and the fat shamers can't cause any more shame than we already feel for ourselves.

Whilst there are many people on mn who are understanding, I am always appalled by those who aren't. Please think on this when those threads come up. Thank you.

Not all hydrogenated fat is bad - naturally hydrogenated fat is 'cis' the industrial sort is 'trans' and that is the harmful sort.

h h h

\ / \ /
==== ====
/ \ cis fat / \ trans fat - the industrial artificial
h one

Oops, didn't work!

Please, people, read the thread. Especially you Hairy. You are exactly the type of person I am talking about. Not least the fact that you have even misread my latest post. I hate sympathy. I would love some empathy.

I worry about people who can't feel empathy for others who are in deep distress. It says way more about you than me tbh.

I have exposed myself exhaustively and you still come along with your stiff upper lip, sort yourself out, patronising bullshit. Sorry but your post makes me .

Who is saying it's your fault!

this is what I really believe

"Our human biology has sadly not developed alongside the world we live in and we're still those greedy hunter gatherers we always were, filling up on whatever we can get our hands on in fear of the next famine."

So that belief would take away some of the personal responsibility. I think there's a lot expected of us in 'modern life' or whatever you call it. The ability to do well in school, to behave "normally" and to achieve and to earn to be successful and to have relationships and to be sociable etc.... so much is expected of us.

You're right there's not much sympathy or empathy for people who are obese. But why do they/we need it?! It was me who made bad choices which led to weight gain (mainly due to lack of knowledge), and it was me who made the decision to change. I really don't understand why sympathy is needed

I think it's to do with how society, in general, regards the issue of obesity/overeating, Hairy. Overeating is an emotionally governed behaviour. It must be, because if our bodies are telling us we're not hungry, then why do we keep eating? It might be a controversial thing to say, but I don't believe that anyone who overeats does so without being led by emotion.

And therefore people who suffer with emotional issues do deserve sympathy or, even better, empathy, IMO. Our decisions to fight unhealthy behaviour in ourselves are of course in our own hands. But as we know, fighting a psychological battle on your own is horrendous.

I wish that, when a person presented his/herself at the GP and said 'I think I have a problem with my eating,' that the GP's first action would be to ask questions about emotional responses and suggest referral for therapy/reading materials (for the interim), not to offer a factsheet about calorie-controlled diets. But I know MH services are horribly underfunded. Doing that, IMO, is like saying to a heroin addict, 'just you stop injecting that heroin and put a few drops of Rescue Remedy on your tongue.' Ain't gonna work.

A more supportive and empathetic society all round is needed. People know it's not OK to joke about alcoholics or drug addicts, people with depression or anxiety. But fat is still taboo, because people think it's funny and grotesque. Look at the delightfully named character Fat Bastard in the Austin Powers films, whose stock phrase was "I eat because I'm unhappy and I'm unhappy because I'm fat." Or the mocking of the overweight teenage Monica in Friends; Ross says to her "cheater, cheater, compulsive eater." The fact of the matter is that plenty of people think fat shaming is OK, and these are people who would balk at calling someone a miserable git if they were suffering from depression. This needs to change, because shame and judgement force people right back into the closet to continue their harmful behaviour.

WichitaLineman The results of market research depend heavily on what question you ask and how you ask it. Sometimes we ask a loaded question and get the answer we expect. Sometimes we search for an answer ignoring the data that doesn't fit the expected answer. See the Daily Fail for evidence of this .

I would like my post to generate a little empathy. That's all. Maybe you are over-sensitive to perceived lack of empathy? I see bucket loads of empathy on this thread. It's what drove me to de-lurk.

Have you tried ACT? It is a v successful therapy with addictive behaviours. That book I mentioned "The Happiness Trap" is based on it.

Hairy is not on the outside looking in though OP, she's surely entitled to have her own feelings about her own weight loss, and her own opinion on her mother's relationship with food. You can't really be getting angry with hairy for what she thinks can you?

I think witcheta that you're angry with people who don't view the subject in the exact same way that you do. Surely it's such a massive subject that it is open to interpretation and analysis and different people can feel differently about the same thing that they've both experienced.

So, just watch out there that you don't tell people what to think, or what the correct view is. It's all so complex, and people who weight the same to the gram can be fighting different battles, i guess it's a bit like a thread on feminism. We can all be feminists and all have slightly different experiences, different obstacles, be hurt or held back by others' views (or not affected by them at all).

tb - I think you mean there are some small amounts of naturally occurring trans fats (in meat for example) and these shouldn't be a cause for concern - but there's no such thing as naturally hydrogenated fat.

Interesting article on nutrition myths that we have been sold here if anyone's interested. Slight diversion from OP's topic but illustrates how hard it is to know what a 'healthy' diet is.

Good post BasilandLime

I am asking that when you see a morbidly obese person, you offer empathy. It doesn't matter what the cause of the obesity. Nobody wants to be that size. I am not telling anyone what to think.

And much of my market research is formed from people jeering abuse in the street.

And my problem with posts like hairy's are that they are talking about something completely different and collating it to what I am talking about. Emotional eating is not the same as compulsive overeating. My mum is a little bit overweight and treats food as reward/ punishment.

I eat until I can't move and am morbidly obese. I hate having to hammer that home because I am ashamed of how grotesque it is. But i am forced to repeat myself again and again .

I am not asking for sympathy because I do not deserve it and it implies pity. Sympathy and empathy are different. Please don't twist what I have been trying to say, which started as I have stated many times as an attempt to offer the perspective of someone with a very real condition.

Of course we're not all going to think the same, we are all individuals who are entitled to our own feelings and views and I don't think the OP has ever said we aren't

But equally, I do not deserve to be thought of as inferior or weak because of my weight and I certainly don't deserve abuse or belittling because of carrying around the evidence of my issues

Thanks piscivorus. I am not telling people what to think. I am suggesting that the morbidly obese jolly person you know may not be as jolly as you think.

And that unless you have felt the despair that goes with compulsive overeating you really shouldn't be flippant about it. Because that is really hurtful and I know most people on mn are kind

Re fat-bashing, in RL I was always gob-smacked when anyone gently "intervened" to tell me I was fat and should lose weight. Like I hadn't noticed. What exactly was going through their tiny minds? I couldn't think what to say. It happened a couple of times. I never did come up with a suitable retort. Maybe because I was already filled with self loathing at my lack of will power (wrong thinking on my part of course).

Open disdain like that of my DM was preferable.

And if I am being accused of making assumptions, so is hairy. Just because she was able to change her behaviour and therefore thinks she shouldn't receive sympathy or empathy for her issues, does that mean I can't expect it?

I have sympathy / empathy for anyone on a weight loss journey who accepts there is a problem and is willing to do something about it. Whether this means asking for help / behavioural therapy / counselling / group weight loss etc. do whatever you need to get the help you need. But to do nothing is defeatist!

I get what you mean, but as I have said (and this may sound counterintuitive) shame stops many from seeking help. Also, addictive processes give something to the addict - be it numbness, escapism, relief from emotional pain (although very temporary). Like self harm.

An addict has to reach rock bottom before they seek help. Hence why many alcoholics are homeless and nearly dead from chirrhosis (sp?) before they ask for help.

It is really not simple.

Maybe someone will be able to identify with Marcus brigstocke's quote and they will seek help. Or just not feel so alone. Then I will be glad that I started this thread.

But I am repeating myself. Sorry.

Fat people are not weak-willed. In fact, a fat person can have a will of iron, just as a thin person or a medium-sized person can.

The problem for fat people is that the attraction of food is (for many complex reasons) stronger than their will to resist.

Naturally-slim people are not attracted to food anywhere near as strongly as fat people are so, given equal strengths of will, one will remain slim and the other will be fat.

To think of fat people as 'weak-willed' is to misunderstand the nature of the problem.

"But the small nagging abusive voice in my head says I am not worth it."

Wichita, this is where you can begin. You start by challenging this negative comment first of all, and reply "well actually I am worth it because I (here you insert all the good things about you and yes, you will have to sit down and have a good think about these good things, it took me a while at first and I wrote them on a bit of paper to remind me ). As you continue to challenge these negative thoughts, it begins to slowly get easier to do, kind of like a habit forming a good habit for a change lol.

What then will follow is a subtle change in your attitude to yourself, the negative thoughts will have less impact and your challenges will become more confident.

Have a go!

Some fat people are weak willed, in the same way that some people are weak willed. Fatter people aren't a different species.

Hmmm, as an obese person I am not sure that I even want empathy, OP, let alone sympathy from others. I just want and expect to be accepted for what I am (be is size, height, weight, age, colour etc). At long last I have learned to accept myself and am much happier for it.

Some fat people are weak willed, in the same way that some people are weak willed. Fatter people aren't a different species

I think what newmorning is suggesting, normalish is that over-eating is not a matter of 'weak will' but of more complex psychological processes which have nothing to do with greed or laziness.

That would be the ideal. Don't think it's going to happen any time soon though, do you?

Have you had any therapy to see if it might be possible to work through the complex psychological processes? I do have empathy for what you're going through, because of what you're saying on this thread, but it wouldn't be blanket empathy for every fat person that I've never spoken to!