To want to offer up to all the fat shamers...

[WichitaLineman]

... On mumsnet who peddle the old "fat people are lazy and lack will -power" or proffer their simplistic formula of "eat less, move more" an incredibly succinct description of food addiction by Marcus Brigstocke. I will admit that that sentence isn't quite so succinct

"Eating is different [from drug addiction]; it's dirty, it's horrible - you do it on your own and you wear it. [With] alcohol and drugs, you have moments of sobriety, [but] you don't stop being fat. You wear it; everyone can see it - it is a brand… an overcoat of shame for everyone to see.

"You despise yourself, you make promises to yourself, you say 'I had a bad day, that was bad but that means this is baseline and I can start', then you go and break those promises and do it again, and worse.

"Eating disorders are more pervasive and subtle [than alcohol and drugs] and availability and acceptability are much higher... the ”high“ comes from the totally full-up feeling ”It is an anaesthetic. You lie like a python digesting what you have, it slows your brain down and you are physically inert. Numb and dull, that is the feeling you get."

Whilst I am not saying that every obese person is a compulsive overeater, I wold wager that most are, including myself. This has resonated with me and is the best description I have read of the self-loathing involved in compulsive overeating. It is a faulty mechanism to deal with emotional pain and the fat shamers can't cause any more shame than we already feel for ourselves.

Whilst there are many people on mn who are understanding, I am always appalled by those who aren't. Please think on this when those threads come up. Thank you.

^If you asked any of my friends/family, even my husband, they would say I just enjoyed my food too much.

I don't enjoy food at all, I hate it, I feel utter relief when all the food is gone, or when I feel so sick I can't eat more, because then I can stop eating. It's a compulsion.

I went to the GP to ask for help and was given lots of sheets on low fat eating. I know more about dieting than many, I know the calorie content of everything, I need a way to get over the compulsion to eat, not healthy eating advice.^

That is such a sensible post and I agree with every single word. I could win Mastermind with my knowledge of calories, fat content, portion size recommendations. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to my weight. My rational head knows what I should be eating. The rest of me ignores it. No, it doesn't even ignore it, it doesn't register at all.

Bum, complete bolding fail on all fronts!

Try again...

If you asked any of my friends/family, even my husband, they would say I just enjoyed my food too much.

I don't enjoy food at all, I hate it, I feel utter relief when all the food is gone, or when I feel so sick I can't eat more, because then I can stop eating. It's a compulsion.

I went to the GP to ask for help and was given lots of sheets on low fat eating. I know more about dieting than many, I know the calorie content of everything, I need a way to get over the compulsion to eat, not healthy eating advice.

That is such a sensible post and I agree with every single word. I could win Mastermind with my knowledge of calories, fat content, portion size recommendations. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to my weight. My rational head knows what I should be eating. The rest of me ignores it. No, it doesn't even ignore it, it doesn't register at all.

Opal - regarding the takeaway, the answer to that is MSG and more importantly, hydrogenated fat (trans-fats) - industrially altered fat that is also ubiquitous and addictive. I don't know that they alter our brain chemistry in exactly the same way as sugar/cocaine does but the pleasure principle is the same and they are substances our bodies cannot cope with, trans fats increase bad cholesterol, lower good cholesterol and have been linked to diabetes and aggression as well as a long list of other problems.

Possibly a bold statement but if HFCS and all hydrogenated/partially hydrogenated fat could be eliminated from the planet I think there would be much less of a problem with obesity.

Could I apologise and completely crash the thread please?
I have a good friend who is very over weight, her son (6) is heading in the same direction. She has tried a few diets but doesn't really mention it at all. I'm slim so find it hard to know how to reply on the rare occasions when she does mention it - I have no understanding of the complex reasons behind her issues, other than knowing that they are deep and complicated. I know she understands 'less food, more exercise' etc. I know she feeds her children 'healthy' food.
I don't want to sound insensitive in posting this thread but I worry about her health and would love some suggestions - what do you want from your friends?

I don't understand fat shaming. When is it ever ok to deliberately humiliate someone?

I think a lot of people think weight is a choice. They don't understand the complicated relationship between food and mind.

No one wants to be fat. Particularly women, who are held to a much higher standard than men when it comes to their weight. For most people it's not a choice.

Which isn't to say that the mind and body can't be re-educated into living more healthily and achieving a more healthy weight and I think as a society we need to do that as our nation is becoming steadily more unhealthy, unproductive and costly. That's different.

One of my friends is obese. We talk honestly about her weight because pretending that it isn't going to hurt her health would be a lie. But I am always very, very careful about what I say. She may be "fat" but I would be a fuckwit if I deliberately or carelessly made her feel shit about herself.

sovery - don't envy those slim people with the terrible diets too much. Being slim doesn't mean you are healthy, and being able to eat what you want without gaining weight doesn't necessarily last for a lifetime. Its an awful shock and big adjustment to make if/when that changes, or you are forced to rethink your diet for health reasons.

Brilliant post profondo.

Thanks Sleepwhen You are probably right that it would make a big difference.

Agreed that is a great description of emotional over eating. But I disagree about not having the power to change things. And I say it as an emotional eater. It is all about willpower and learning to recognise hunger vs emotional needs. I struggle with it but am getting to grips with it (very slowly!). It is a journey. To expect overnight healthy eating is unrealistic. If I eat better today than I did yesterday then I am already winning. If I replace chocolate / crisps / biscuits with veg then even if I overeat the consequences aren't too bad. It's not easy, but if I don't get a grip on it now when will I?!?

Don't envy those slim people with the terrible diets too much. Being slim doesn't mean you are healthy, and being able to eat what you want without gaining weight doesn't necessarily last for a lifetime. Its an awful shock and big adjustment to make if/when that changes, or you are forced to rethink your diet for health reasons.

Sleepwhen, absolutely right. This was me a few years ago. I had been out of the binge-purge cycle for a good few years and just didn't really think about my weight anymore. I could eat pretty much what I wanted, and often ate crap, but stayed slim (I was never bulimic because I wanted to get to a 'healthy' weight, it was because I was obsessive. I knew I was a healthy weight).

Then I went on anti-depressants for anxiety in 2010 and my weight has increased significantly. I hadn't felt 'fat' in years and it's been very hard not to get obsessed with 'repairing' this new body. If there's any positive to be found, though, it's that I started thinking more creatively and curiously about food - what can I cook that's healthy and tasty, that I won't get bored of? I make a lot of juice and actively feel good about knowing I've consumed three beetroots and lots of spinach (disguised under the more palatable taste of citrus fruits or berries ) of a morning, because I know they're good for me. Things aren't perfect - I'll still eat a whole Domino's on occasion (and it's usually if I've had a bad day) and my relationship with food might never be 'neutral' but we can only do our best.

I much prefer thinking like that to doing something like 5:2, where you're fasting and counting every calorie, because, for someone who has issues with compulsion, I feel it could be very, very dangerous.

hairy - dealing with emotional eating is very difficult yes. It is usually a learned coping mechanism, so you can re-train yourself to find different coping mechanisms, or address the thing that is requiring you to cope (put the kids up for adoption perhaps ). But addiction is a different level to this - once you are an addict, the pre-frontal cortex of your brain, the bit that makes the sensible decisions, is impaired, only by de-toxing from the addictive substance can you get back to a 'normal' state of being able to use logic and reasoning, all tied in with 'willpower' like other people do.

Agreed that is a great description of emotional over eating. But I disagree about not having the power to change things.

This ^^

The desire to be thin led me to learn about emotional eating which ultimately led to me learning techniques to manage my mental health better.

I cannot stop myself from being an emotional eater. I can limit my self-destructive behaviour.

profondo - I think what you are doing with food is a great approach. As soon as we have any struggle with our weight we are indoctrinated to think of it as the enemy, to minimise it, avoid it. When in fact that goes against all our natural instincts.

It would be amazing if we could look at what positive things food can do for us - because there are many - and choose accordingly, to nourish ourselves and care for our health (not so much our waistline) rather than deprive ourselves. If we made 90% of our food choices on that basis we would mostly be eating - and enjoying (believe it or not ) - lots of good quality whole foods, naturally occurring fat, protein, veg and pulses, never forcing ourselves to count calories or endure hunger to be a healthy weight. In that context, occasionally eating a pizza or some cake won't be harmful and we would maintain a healthy weight without having to think about it. So much easier said than done to get to this way of living when we are mostly all thinking and eating on a completely different basis and surrounded by cheap crap food though .

I think that's the key issue - learning a way to limit the behaviour.

You could go your whole life understanding and repeating what the experts say...and getting to know exactly why you're addicted to something. Some people know enough to write a whole book on it.

But if they're convinced they don't have the power to change/manage their addiction, nothing will ever change for them.

In years to come they'll still be talking about it but with no change at all.

yes I agree, if it's your head, fix your head. and i don't say that lightly honestly, I have had counselling and I'd have psychotherapy and the psychotherapy particularly was so beneficial to me.

I've been able to stay slim in a world that makes obesity if not inevitable for all then almost but not quite inevitable for me, i 5:2, i exercise, it's a life sentence! i'm pragmatic, i get on with it. i exercise denial because I believe it's necessary but NOT self-loathing I don't believe the two go together and it's assumed sometimes that they do.

I never managed to get any qualifications, sit an exam. I think of myself as a clever person trapped inside the body of somebody who can't study, work, apply myself.......... all around me I used to see fat people with degrees and great jobs and relationships and savings plans and mortgages and lovely homes and actually I would think that in contrast to the areas of my own lifee that were in total disarray, yes they DID have control.

I feel like your op tells us what we think of obese people. I have my own musings.

worra you are right, in the end there's only one person who can stop an addictive habit and that is the addict themself, but I think its worth understanding, especially if we jump straight to judging obese individuals, how the level of effort required to do that is different from the rest of us feeling a bit chubby and cutting down on the crisps, or even losing a stone or two using whatever diet we choose .

Haven't read all the thread, but on a 'fat-bashing' thread recently the most stupid comment I read was the 'a calorie is just a calorie' when it so obviously isn't.

Even more sadly, some of the medical profession (using the word medical loosely) think this, too.

Human beings don't work like central heating boilers - very inconvient it is, too.

Of course we have to be the ones to implement change. Read all the things I have done and tell me what I am doing wrong. Please? I would love nothing, literally nothing more than to beat this.

I have sold property to fund treatment. Is it my fault? Am I not trying hard enough? I don't feel hopeless and I will keep trying.

As I stated in the op, I don't want sympathy. I would like my post to generate a little empathy. That's all. I have no idea what people think of obese people, but a little market research on mn and the street tells me the majority of it ain't very empathetic.

Tb yes, the calorie theory works to a point - a calorie burned is a calorie burned, but calories consumed are far from equal in terms of what our bodies do with them, depending on their source. ''a calorie is a calorie' is up there with 'fat makes us fat ' .

ladymontdore start a new thread with your post, you seem nice and non-judgy.

I bet you'll get loads of advice. Some of it will be useful. Make this face at responses like "explain to her that being obese is unhealthy", "tell her she is a terrible mother for having an obese child, someone should call SS", "give her a healthy eating leaflet", "offer to show her how to make a lovely salad, here's a recipe".

See the way I see it, fat people are often fighting an uphill battle.

Our human biology has sadly not developed alongside the world we live in and we're still those greedy hunter gatherers we always were, filling up on whatever we can get our hands on in fear of the next famine.

The trouble is we need not hunt nor gather anymore and we can get our hands on far more fattening foods than our ancestors.

This coupled with an innate love of sweet and fat (breast milk) puts most people at a disadvantage that is entirely normal, biologically.

The final nail in the coffin is the power of the food industries, especially the sugar lobby. These industries have a vested interest in supplying us with as much of their product as is possible...

Why slim people can't see this is beyond me.

Have to say I agree with those whose friends would say they are happy and confident but just enjoy my food a bit too much but I too am aware of far deeper problems in myself

I have spent years knowing this and looking at the simplistic psychological explanations. Am I eating because I am sad, bored, angry, what?? Or am I just eating mindlessly? I still don't know

I too am trying to control the addictive sugars, etc by low carbing but have learned a lot from this thread. Thank you OP and others

You're right there's not much sympathy or empathy for people who are obese. But why do they/we need it?! It was me who made bad choices which led to weight gain (mainly due to lack of knowledge), and it was me who made the decision to change. I really don't understand why sympathy is needed. I know it's bloody difficult and I struggle with it myself, but I don't want anyone feeling sorry me! My mum is obese and chooses not to change her eating habits. I think she feels powerless about it and refuses to even talk about it. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever as I have tried numerous times to offer her as much support as I can. Why should I feel sorry for her?? She does have the power to change things. It's not easy but it is in her hands. She just chooses not to.

Wichita - have you read any of the articles about how combinations of certain foods create addictive responses in the brain on a par with heroin and cocaine?

No one has any trouble accepting that these things are incredibly hard to overcome, and yet you can go cold turkey with drugs, unlike food.

It can be very hard to eliminate foods with these combinations in your diet without a great deal of effort and cost. Cooking from scratch with all-natural, unadulterated ingredients is expensive and time-consuming. The food industry has made it very difficult to eat healthily.

No matter how iron-willed you are, if you are fighting those sorts of withdrawal symptoms on a continual basis (whereas you only have to overcome it once to get off drugs), it's not surprising that so many compulsive over-eaters fail.

Apologies if you've already done all this. I don't want to come across as patronising, but having gone on a health drive years ago when pregnant where I went a bit mad and insisted that only whole foods would pass my lips, etc., one of the unexpected side-effects I discovered was that biscuits, chocolate, take-aways etc all suddenly became unappetising to me after a few months and I started craving much healthier alternatives and in lesser amounts. I also found that while my weight remained stable (I've never been overweight), the distribution of my body fat changed. I lost my muffin top, for example. I find that very interesting.