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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think scouts guides etc

245 replies

alicetrefusis · 27/01/2014 01:41

Are bloody weird. And the adults even more so. The uniforms!I speak as an ex guide ran away- but shit all that weirdly pseudo military stuff.looked at from the outside v disturbing. Also the cannibalistic rites and torture bits of the Christian service awful. Yet look around and church full of daily nail blue rinses and young parents desperate to get em into school, scary,

OP posts:
RubberBullets · 27/01/2014 20:47

We have never tried cannibalism, maybe we should do that instead of cooking blackbirds in future. They are rather fond of blackbirds though so not sure if they will be up for a change

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 27/01/2014 22:50

ChocolateWombat - I didn't say the entire movement was like that, I asked what was in place to prevent what things like that happening because it did happen to us in our one unit no matter how unlikely or exaggerated you think it is.

I don't drive, so most of the time I just sat outside. I tried volunteering, but was told they had plenty and got them from church members (I found it odd that they preferred men from the church rather than mothers wanting to volunteer, though they did usually have 2-3 volunteers each week, quite good for a group of 8 girls). I still clearly recall the prayer discussing how 'your world was a lovely place to be, thank you God for making me' and had long conversations with DD1 about why it was 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' and why it didn't include mothers or daughters. I wasn't actually bothered by that, I just find the repeated comments that it's not religious to ring hollow from our experience, our problem was with how connected it was with the church and how isolated from everything those who were not church members were made to feel. When she joined I asked about church parade, which in her group was monthly at least, because I'm not British and didn't know what it was - I was just told that because I was a member of a different faith that I didn't need to go. End of conversation. All my other questions on it were answered with how we didn't need to go when all I wanted to know was what it was so I knew what to do, I wanted to make sure DD1 was prepared, and was made to feel very unwelcome (particularly in how she gestured to my cloth cap when she mentioned different faith, though my headcovering isn't religious).

At the end of each term there was trip, and each time the plan changed and somehow they could only get in touch with church members. Every time. I brought this up, I was brushed off, I asked to check the details on her sheet which were right in front of her in her case and was refused repeatedly. I remember the last one was the park practically next to our house and I went with DD for hours, multiple days in a row, waiting for them to show up - they never did, they had changed parks. It was quite rough for DD1 because she would get so excited and then...nothing. She felt like she was being excluded because something was wrong with her. And I work and educate from home, missing me at home is quite hard.

I saw my daughter's bullying first hand, she was there for almost a year (started in September, left in June). One of the biggest incidents was DD1 being told that she was disgusting for not going to church, my daughter is literally standing next to me in tears, sobbing, gasping to speak, and the leader just said that my daughter wasn't really upset and that there was nothing wrong in the doorway where everyone heard it. Her father went with her the next week to try to clear things up, and he was told nothing had happened and brushed aside all the concerns brought up to her. That was last June when we pulled her because I didn't think it was good for her to go to a place and repeatedly come home in tears that weren't even being recognised let alone addressed. It made the previous times she'd come out upset and been brushed off quite concerning in hindsight after that incident.

She still gets upset and asks why those girls didn't want to play with her now, she still thinks its her fault, that something was wrong with her, and pines sometimes for one girl in the group that talked to her that had moved up to Brownies while she was there, even though DD1's moved on to other activities and friends since. No matter how unlikely one thinks or how exaggerated it could be, it was a really painful, hurtful experience for DD1, it really knocked her self esteem and confidence. She went from a real social butterfly to being really anxious, panicky, and worried about being wrong and not doing good enough. Might just be her development, but my original post was hoping there are safeguards in place to help stop and prevent isolation and bullying happening to anyone else because it was heartbreaking for us, it was not meant as a reflection on the movement as a whole.

Kayakinggirl86 · 27/01/2014 22:58

So guiders/ scouters may be a bit different- most of us juggle ful time jobs, family and other commitments, when most people would be putting there feet up we are planning camps and outings!
But we must be doing something right with 102 years of guides, 100 years of brownies and 26 years of rainbows. 2 in six women in the UK have been at guiding at some point in their lives. That is a lot of lives guiding has had a impact on!
Sorry OP if you had a bad experance of guiding/ scouting. But no need to be so negative on a organisation that is run by people giving up their time (and some times money) for other people's kids to benefit.

arabellarubberplant · 28/01/2014 06:21

Hey, is anyone taking a unit to wings 2014?

Goldencity1 · 28/01/2014 09:42

arabella - we are!! 21 assorted guides and rangers.

DistanceCall · 28/01/2014 09:49

Yep, Catholics do (in theory) believe in transubstantiation. When you eat the consecrated wafer, you are literally eating God.

Which I find sort of cool, actually (YOU EAT GOD). But that's me.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 28/01/2014 10:50

My dd loved the Brownies and Guides, and my ds had a great time at Beavers. He wasn't so keen on cubs though so he stopped going at that point (plus it clashed with karate). I think it can be great, depending on the group and leaders, especially for the younger/middle age groups. I also loved being a Guide - going camping with Guides was wonderful and gave me something to do every summer holiday. There wasn't so much choice growing up in the 70s - anything that helped you meet others your own age, and got you out of the house, was generally not a bad thing!

JugglingFromHereToThere · 28/01/2014 10:58

So sorry to read of your dd's experiences Spork - that's awful.
I hope she is enjoying her new activities and friendships, and feeling welcomed there?

DinoSnores · 28/01/2014 12:08

spork, in terms of safeguards, each leader has a District Commissioner, then Division Commissioner (sometimes not both), then County Commissioner, then Chief Commissioner (of the Region/Country), then the Chief Guide as our sort of line management structure, so if there are problems, people can go up the chain. When my Brownies join, they get my details but also get the DCs' details so if there is something they don't want to discuss with me, they can go to them.

arabellarubberplant · 28/01/2014 13:36

Golden, woooooooooo! We are bringing 12 at the mo, if we can raise enough money. (Overseas unit, I am WEEPING at the cost of flights)

We can have an mn mini-meet in the squircle Wink

arabellarubberplant · 28/01/2014 13:38

Spork, your rainbow unit were breaking every rule in the book, and whilst maybe a Rainbow unit in name, were not one in ethos or the rules they followed. You should report up the chain, immediately.

stickysausages · 28/01/2014 13:42

Ds is starting beavers after the summer!

He will love it, he's quite outdoorsy & it will do him good to meet new people :)

momb · 28/01/2014 14:02

I'm a Brownie Leader. We still sing Brownie bells. It's a prayer. Every September I offer them a different song. Every year they choose Brownie Bells...even my Muslim and Hindu Brownies.
But mostly we go on night walks or cook pancakes on bean tins, play games and do crafts.

momb · 28/01/2014 14:06

Spork that's awful! Certainly different to my experience of guiding as a girl and now as a leader. I am so sorry that they were so awful to your DD.

Middleagedmotheroftwo · 28/01/2014 14:42

OP - go and find someone else to pick on. The Guiding (and Scouting I think) movement has a waiting list nationally as long as your arm, so we must be doing something right.

(from our website) - Girlguiding is the leading charity for girls and young women in the UK. Thanks to the dedication and support of 100,000 amazing volunteers, we are active in every part of the UK, giving girls and young women a space where they can be themselves, have fun, build brilliant friendships, gain valuable life skills and make a positive difference to their lives and their communities. We build girls’ confidence and raise their aspirations. We give them the chance to discover their full potential and encourage them to be a powerful force for good.

If you don't like that, don't join and don't send your kids.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 28/01/2014 14:57

I have three personal experiences of these organisations.

One when I was briefly a Brownie and was ridiculed by the Brown Owl and group because I didn't believe in God.
The second was spending the weekend with a Scout Leader at a chemistry symposium at a hotel in Cumbria. This guy sent a lot of time lamenting tha fact that his scouts were not made to wera short trousers these days- unlike when he first became a Scout leader- " nothing arouses my passions like the sight of a young boy in shorts" were the words that stuck in my mind.
The third was when my daughter briefly joined the Brownies and on her third week parents were invited to watch a presentation of a summer camp at a local youth hostel.
Apparently painters had been working on the window frames at the time of the stay and many of the youngers Brownies had surmised that the theme of the week was "peeping toms", and that these guys up ladders were trying to get glimpses of the youngsters in their underwear.

THe Brown Owl at the presentation thought this was hilarious and kept bursting into giggles at the mention of the men front of a roomful or parents and girls.
At no point did she correct the youngsters who even after the meeting remained convinced that the "peeping toms" was part of the weeks entertainment.

I was horrified and very confused that the Brown Owl should be conducting herself in this manner. Needless to say I did not allow my daughter to retun.

Only three experiences and all very negative.

ChocolateWombat · 28/01/2014 17:06

TheSpork, I find what you are saying amazing. I think you should go up the chain with your issues, so that they can be sorted out. If what you are saying is investigated and found to be true, something will need to be done about it and the Guiding movement will definitiely want to know and address it. If things turn out to not be quite as they seemed, that would be good to know. Either way, you are obviously very upset about this and probably would benefit from getting some closure about it.

I think that when we have serious issues about anything, we should voice them to higher authorities so they can be investigated, because otherwise how do things improve. Sometimes there turns out to be a simple explanation, but other times not. If we just keep the issue to ourselves we can become bitter and it is difficult to bring improvement to the situation for others.
I am sorry if I was dismissive of your concerns. I think what you describe is extremely unusual, but should be investigated, because the Guiding movement want people to have positive experiences.

Almostfifty · 28/01/2014 21:29

atthestrokeofmidnight

They may be your experiences, they're certainly not mine. I have spent many an hour doing training, and recently updated my Child Protection online. We have male Leaders in each section, but we ensure we have at least one male/one female at each meeting.

I went into it to ensure my DC had the chance to join as they were short of leaders. I enjoy it so much I've been doing it ten years.

I can honestly say there's not one leader in our group I would not go away on holiday with. We take children away to camp, they have a ball and go back tired out and filthy. We watch them become mature, confident individuals. One of the children that started with mine has just become a Young Leader herself. That to me is the way it should be.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 28/01/2014 21:41

Almostfifty I don't get your point

" One of the children that started with mine has just become a Young Leader herself. That to me is the way it should be." What does that prove.
Children can become secure confident individuals without or despite the guiding movement.

Permanentlyexhausted · 28/01/2014 22:57

Atthestroke

I would imagine the point was that children get so much out of Girlguiding that many of them return as adults because they want to help provide other children with the same opportunities.

I don't think she was suggesting that children can't become secure confident individuals without the Girlguiding movement. Just that it can provide those opportunities for many girls who wouldn't otherwise get them.

Grennie · 28/01/2014 22:59

I had forgotten about the brownies prayers. We used to sing them automatically at the end of each session.

Permanentlyexhausted · 28/01/2014 23:03

Or, indeed, the Scouting movement. Just realised I was making rather an assumption there.

NoLikeyNoLighty · 29/01/2014 00:37

We still sing Brownie bells. It's a prayer.

I've just googled that as I recognised the name, but convinced I couldn't remember it!
Read the words and straight away sang them even though it's been around 30 years since I last heard them!
(Must be ingrained, lol)
I used to go to Brownies and Guides and love it. I now have two boys and they go to Beavers and Scouts respectively. (Eldest has worked his way up from Beavers to Scouts which he has just started.)
They both love it as it teaches independence with all your badges, from home badges (learning to do housework etc) to surviving when out camping in the forest.
Life skills and all that!

arabellarubberplant · 29/01/2014 01:44

Really, atthestroke? They are your only three experiences? What a limited array.
Fortunately, as has been mentioned, experiences from twenty or thirty years ago aren't terribly representative of the organisation these days.

Don't let that stop you accusing us leaders of paedophilia and being juvenile, though, eh?

Fortunately, we're robust enough to brush off such outdated nonsense, and understand that once in a while a young girl will become a brown Owl prematurely. A bit more life experience and she'll probably be fine. I notice that you immediately volunteered your maturity and willingness to help by stepping up as a mentor and co-leader? No?

Ah, no. You prefer to bitch and moan on an Internet forum. at least we're in it and helping girls (young people for the scouters) make the most of them themselves and become strong confident members of society, and having fun along the way.

Lord knows some leaders are proper crackers, though. Grin Dd1 had a brown owl that bribed them with Mars bars to attend church parade (they met in the church hall and she felt obliged to try and up attendance) and ds1's scout leader is currently suspended pending investigation. All part of life's rich pattern. Grin

arabellarubberplant · 29/01/2014 01:46

(Oh, as a brownie leader, we were asked to replace the first line of brownie bells with 'oh hear us now' instead of 'oh lord our God'. It was fine.)

I still sing Taps in the original, despite a random re-mix version popular here. I have brainwashed my unit to do the same, despite their initial bafflement.