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AIBU?

To think scouts guides etc

245 replies

alicetrefusis · 27/01/2014 01:41

Are bloody weird. And the adults even more so. The uniforms!I speak as an ex guide ran away- but shit all that weirdly pseudo military stuff.looked at from the outside v disturbing. Also the cannibalistic rites and torture bits of the Christian service awful. Yet look around and church full of daily nail blue rinses and young parents desperate to get em into school, scary,

OP posts:
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atthestrokeoftwelve · 29/01/2014 06:55

I would be interested to read the "alternate " words to the Brownie prayer.

I see the Scouts still have to promise to do their duty to god- why is that?

Arabella the Brown Owl in the peeping tom case is in her 40s and still leads the local group.

A co-leader- oh please.

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MomsStiffler · 29/01/2014 08:53

Ah, no. You prefer to bitch and moan on an Internet forum. at least we're in it and helping girls (young people for the scouters) make the most of them themselves and become strong confident members of society, and having fun along the way.

This is what a lot of these people don't like. Their children leave the protection and constant supervision of the nest & go & have fun without hovering parents. Even worse - sometimes they have to wear the same clothes as each other!!

Personally, I think these organisations are great - Cubs, Scout, Brownies, Guides and even (waits for gasps of horror) Cadets - kids get out & have fun whilst learning how to interact and become independent.

As for slating the volunteers that give up their time to share - don't get me started!

If you don't like it, fair enough - but give your kids a chance to make up their own minds....

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MomsStiffler · 29/01/2014 08:55

atthestrokeofmidnight

You sure you didn't fall asleep watching "Carry on Camping" and dream the whole thing? You need to lay off the cheese before bedtime!!

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alemci · 29/01/2014 09:01

is it "Taps" which we used to sing in Guides Arabella

Oh Lord our God Thy Children Call
Grant us thy peace and bless us all
Goodnight.

I am very grateful to the kind people who give up their time to run these organisations. My son isn't a great joiner but he loves going to Explorers and has done Beavers, cubs, Scouts all the way through.

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PsychicPaper · 29/01/2014 09:08

Is it just me who has had a run of new requests on join us since this thread started?

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Goldencity1 · 29/01/2014 09:12

Arrabella: well said! See you at wings!

Alemci. That's Brownie Bells, still sung at a lot of Brownie meetings, sometimes with alterations!

Guides sing taps
Day is done, gone the sun, from the sea, from hills, from the sky. Safely rest, God is nigh.
We sing "goodnight" at the end as one leader is an atheist.....

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Lottiedoubtie · 29/01/2014 09:16

I haven't psychic but I love the idea that threads like this actually boost the membership!

alemci that's brownie bells you've quoted there. Taps goes like this-

Day is done,
Gone the sun,
From the sea, from the hills, from the sky,
All is well,
Safely rest,
God is nigh.

I have a unit of 38 girls from reasonably diverse backgrounds, many with families who don't send them to church parade etc... But never have I heard anyone object to Taps, I honestly don't think they ever think that deeply about it.

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JerseySpud · 29/01/2014 09:18

Sounds like my Beaver scouts are losing out then O.o

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blackcats73 · 29/01/2014 09:41

Jeez, I'm a serial lurker on mumsnet and love it. However this rabid anti Christianity drives me mad.

I'm a cubs helper. The only references to Christianity is in the promise (and you can leave out the God bit), Remembrance Day, which isn't compulsory and St George's day. To be honest I object more to the Queen bit myself.

I volunteered as my son, who struggles with social interaction benefited hugely from it and I wanted to give other children a similar opportunity.

Some packs , attached to church may well have more of a Christian Ethos, however, it's not the 1950s any more. The Church of England and even some Catholic churches/schools isn't(In my experience) hellfire and damnation anymore. More about being nice to people and telling stories about Jesus. That's my experience of going to and sending my DCs to church schools. I'm agnostic.

Just can't get as worked up about Christianity as some on here.

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Goldencity1 · 29/01/2014 09:48

Atthestroke: The scouts have introduced an alternative version of the promise for atheists, their view point is explained here: promise

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hellsbells99 · 29/01/2014 09:48

I lead a guide pack. Uniform is jeans and hoodies. I am called by my first name. We go to church (it is voluntary) twice a year - and 1 of those times is for the Act of Remembrance which most of our village attend.
We go to the Big Gig (pop concert), Activity holidays, do chip tasting competitions, dance sessions, rambles, archery etc.
It is a social group for 30 odd girls to get together once a week and meet up with their friends in the village. Most are at high school and this is the one chance they have to meet up with friends that most have known from pre-school. It is probably quite rare that our girls go to approx. 8 different schools and all live within 1.5 miles of each other.

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CalamitouslyWrong · 29/01/2014 10:02

DS1 is a total atheist and has no objection to scouts. He didn't care about pledging to do his duty to god (since he doesn't actually believe in god) or to the queen (not monarchists here). Just because some people might find those bits meaningful doesn't mean everyone has to.

Ds1 will be going up to explorers next year and he's keen to become a young leader. Scouts has been great for developing his confidence and letting him see himself as competent (whereas school often achieves the opposite). He's currently a pack leader and really enjoys helping with organisation and looking out for the younger kids or just the new kids. And he loves all the getting muddy stuff.

Tbh, I don't care about religion, unless someone is using that religion to imply superiority or they're trying to convert me/my children. But scouts really doesn't do either of those things. Church attendance is always entirely optional.

I do not believe that a scout leader (or anyone for that matter) would say outright to someone they'd just met that 'nothing arouses their passions like boys in shorts'. They might well think that, but it would be incredibly unusual for someone to care so little about social norms to vocalise it.

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pourmeanotherglass · 29/01/2014 10:20

DD loved brownies, hated guides (too many teenage girls playing with their phones and not enough action), and is now loving scouts.
These organisations can be great, if the volunteers running the packs are enthusiastic and have lots of creative ideas.
The things we have liked about brownies and scouts have been the opportunity to try a variety of different activities. DD has been to PGL weekends away with brownies and tried climbing, abseiling, fencing, etc. With scouts she has built campfires outside the hut, been hiking in the dark, done orienteering exercises, and played 'wide games'. She's not been to her first scout camp yet, but is really looking forward to it.

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Almostfifty · 29/01/2014 11:02

atthestroke

I meant the Young Leader is giving something back to Scouting, after all it's done for her. It really has. She was a quiet, shy child who's really found her independence and I like to think we as a Group had something to do with that.

As to the Promise, Scouts no longer have to include God in it, as from a couple of weeks ago.

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alemci · 29/01/2014 11:05

Lottie - of course it is. It all got a bit blurred. I totally agree about the words. In a historical context this was/is a christian country and I believe Baden-Powell was a christian so it would make sense that the songs and promises are prayerful. It is not as though Jesus Christ is being mentioned in any of it so I don't really see why it couldn't have stayed as it was.

God is a fairly generic term.

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ChocolateWombat · 29/01/2014 22:46

I suspect that those who are so critical of Scouting/Guiding on here and the kind of people who have trouble fitting into lots of organisations. Are they the people who move school lots of times, because the teachers never understand their children and all the other children bully their children. And they leave their dance classes because the teacher always favours other people. And their child is never chosen to play in a good position in the football team, because the coach dislikes him. And religion or politics is being pushed everywhere and offending them.
I think there are just some people who are offended by everything and take exception to everything. So glad to read so very many more posts from people who accept that Scouting and Guiding isn't perfect, but gives their children great experiences, which they are pleased and thankful for.

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atthestrokeoftwelve · 30/01/2014 06:47

chocolate- your assumptions are wrong and highlight your intolerant thinking.

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Unplastered · 30/01/2014 09:58

Guide leader

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CaptainGrinch · 30/01/2014 10:00

I think Chocolate has it spot on.

They hate the idea of their PFBs doing things outside the protection of their wing.

At the end of the day the only people that lose out are the kids - the Guide/Scout leaders & volunteers are saved the hassle of needy parents making a PITA of themselves....

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Unplastered · 30/01/2014 10:15

Oops. Guide leader with over 20 years experience here. Before becoming a Guider I was a Brownie, Guide, and Young Leader, so around 30 years experience of the organisation.
Guiding is not a Christian organisation, and never has been. Refer back to early handbooks from the 1910's and 1920's and you will see Baden Powell's references to the inclusion of girls from other faiths. In 1910 when Guiding started, almost everyone had some sort of faith - in the UK, most were Christian. It is logical that Guiding followed this pattern. Over the years as people's beliefs and lifestyles have changed, so have the practices of Guiding. It is rare now to have a 'Guides Own' service at camp for example, and it is always voluntary. No Guide or Scout now has to promise to love or serve any God. church parade is usually limited to Remembrance Day (which locally at least is attended by the entire village, every age and religious background) and sometimes St Georges Day or Mother's Day, and again is always voluntary. There are occasional groups which are 'sponsored' by Churches or other religious groups, in the same way that schools are. They are VERY rare - there isn't a single sponsored unit in our whole county. In practice sponsoring means that the group gets to use the church hall for meetings rent free, that is all.
Of course there have been Leaders in both Guiding and Scouting who have done inappropriate things - as in every walk of life there are good people and bad people. The same applies to teachers, nurses, vicars, etc etc etc. they are all police checked and would Not be allowed to become a leader if any conviction was flagged up, or allowed to continue as a leader if they were convicted after the police check was done. I do not believe that any leader would make comments about young boys in short trousers.
Guiding offers a place where girls can enjoy activities from chocolate tasting to campfires, abseiling to baking, first aid to sailing. Girls get the opportunity to travel in the UK and abroad. I can't praise Guiding enough.
With a national waiting list of over 50,000 girls, the only thing we are short of is leaders. People who are prepared to give up their free time voluntarily to run activities for other people's kids, in between managing their own lives, jobs, families.
Instead of posting ill thought out comments on the internet about these people, why not volunteer yourself if you could do so much better?

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DioneTheDiabolist · 30/01/2014 10:21

YY Chocolate.

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alemci · 30/01/2014 11:11

fair point chocolate. perhaps it brings up difficulties connected with parents own childhood where they has hurts and misunderstandings and difficulties with authority.

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atthestrokeoftwelve · 30/01/2014 11:49

What rubbish!

My DD was happy going to dance class at the age of 5, and both my kids did week long residential trips with the school at age 7.

I was happy being a school prefect, I am a schoool Governor atm, a member of the local Authority children's panel, my son is on the student's council at secondary school and represents his school at the Model United Nation forum.

Where you get this idea that we don't want our kids doing independant activities or that we have a problem with authority is laughable.

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NigellasDealer · 30/01/2014 11:58

They hate the idea of their PFBs doing things outside the protection of their wing
sorry but that is bollocks, both of mine have done plenty of things without me, probably more than most, and I did send them to cubs, but tbh the general weirdness of the leaders was overwhelming. I do not speak for any pack but the one we joined of course. and no I am not going to volunteer myself.

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atthestrokeoftwelve · 30/01/2014 12:22

chocolate- you also describe the guiding movement as authority?

Please don't flatter yourself.

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