aibu to feel slightly on edge when I come across women in the full black burka?

[caroleharolde]

I just always feel slightly threatened, I know the vast majority of Muslims are lovely nonviolent people but.just this sight always unnerve me. Be honest, who hadn't felt a bit uncomfortable when passing by a huddle of the burqa wearers? Not trying to be racist, I'd feel the same if it were Christians or Jews or any other religion wearing it.

“Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other,” the Koran asserts. Replace ‘women’ with any race or religion, and a public assertion of such a thing would be cause for criminal proceedings.
Imposing the segregation of the Burqa on women in an assertion of a bigoted creed that dehumanizes an entire gender. While Muslims are free to believe what they do, a public display that dehumanizes women as a gender by treating their faces as obscene, is an intolerant violation of the norms of civil society.

Youthecat - I'm sorry to hear your story. And, yes, I agree that there's no sure way to know if a woman is dressed the way she is through free choice.

I think there is a part of me that simply can't imagine that any woman with free will would chose to cover herself from head to toe, to the extent where it impinges on her vision and balance.

no they are not Jimmy

an abuser is usually calculating enough to punch/bite/kick/slap where bruising can be easily hidden

What are the "norms of civil society"? I could argue that we don't have civil society in the UK.

when you feel that pricking of fear, s m i l e. smile at the lady in the burqa. she's a respectable woman, like you.

i don't like covered faces. its not part of my tradition or culture. I'm white british with irish heritage. in my culture, only bad people cover their faces (think bank robbers and highwaymen. oh, and brides. but that's because they're in a liminal phase and spiritually dangerous) i'd be happy if face-covering (bandanas, motorcycle helmets when not actually on the road, any covering) was illegal. but at present, it isn't.

so smile. she doesn't mean you any harm. she's doing her thing. its ok.

I don't feel on edge, but I do feel annoyed at times, for example with the very large family we were sitting by when we were on holiday this year. There were about 20 of them, men women and children. The adult females were all in full burkhas bar one who didn't have her face covered. The teen females were all wearing leggings, long sleeved T shirts and hair scarfs. All the males (boys and adults) were in swimming shorts and nothing else.

The young girls resolutely stayed out of the pool and sat on sunloungers in the shade (considering we were at a water park...). The women were walking the little ones around the kids pools, still in their burkhas.

It was about 40 degrees in the shade and I was annoyed at how hot the women must have been but had to stay covered - at least the men could have kept their clothes on out of solidarity if nothing else.

I struggle to understand why a woman, of her own free will, would decide to wear such a garment. I don't doubt that it is their free will in many cases and I acknowledge that the lack of understanding is on my part but that is what I feel/think when I see niqab/burka wearers - not threatened or suspicious in any way.

I can't help feeling that women's hard fought freedoms, emancipation and fight for equality in this country was not so that women could choose to wear something so segregating. ("The fight for the freedom to choose to be oppressed" I have heard it called).

I suppose that because there is no equivalent male attire which completely covers facial features, head and body shape that it appears to me a sign of oppression or a sign that women are in some way defined by their sexuality which must be kept the property of a man. Or that it is in some way shameful to be seen as female in public. I know it can be argued that it is not so I just struggle with this and would like to hear the compelling case by women who have made that choice, not just that it was their right or freedom to do so.

Nancy, I can't understand why someone would want to squeeze themselves into jeans three sizes too small so they can't move/bend very easily and have a massive muffin top, but they do. It's their choice though, hopefully.

My take on this is that in the radio 4 documentary the women said amongst other things it prevented unwanted attention from men. I think that is a terrible reason. If someone is behaving in an offensive or illegal manner it's their behaviour which has to change.

No one on here I hope falls for the line she was asking for it dressed like that.

Yes I suppose DLT is unlikely to have tried it on if the girls had been wearing niqabs. I find it strange, depressing and quite honestly offensive that a woman in Europe thinks that she might be fair game unless she covers up and that she is the one at fault if she doesn't and gets unwanted attention.

Perhaps the DLT trial is sending out clear messages on how we as a society view such behaviour.

As for racism, the most (only?) racist comment was the one about French men.

Herethereandeverywhere exactly. Good post.

LTEve - I sat next to a couple on a plane once. He was in western dress (a Chelsea FC top as I recall) and she was in a burqa.

When the drinks and food came round I was fascinated to see how she'd eat and drink. The answer was: she didn't. She sat there not eating or drinking a thing while her pig of a husband filled his face.

Those who frame the wearing of the burka as a feminist issue of the "right to choose" a mode of dress are in grave danger of colluding in the bullying of those who have no "right to choose" and are compelled to live in stifling darkness and worse. Perhaps the greatest irony in the debate over the burka is that the rise in Islamic fundamentalism is a reaction to the rise of feminism in the West yet it is feminists who are the most vocal non-Islamic supporters of the burka. There was little appetite for Islamic extremism in the 1950s when women in the West were kept to the kitchen and family and forced to wear modest clothing and divorce was relatively rare. It is the reaction to the growth and spread of Western feminist culture over the past 40 years that has changed Islamic countries from places where even head-scarves were becoming rare to places where women are entombed in fabric. Extreme Islam is a reaction to feminism and those who call themselves feminists who ignore this are not feminists at all.

I feel uncomfortable with all persons who are extremely religious be they Jews, Christians, Muslims whatever. Extreme Islamic dress is just an overt signal of this and so I would be very wary of that person. I don't dislike all religious people. Women who choose to a headscarf or a cross wouldn't alarm me but but people in a burka or a full nun's habit I wouldn't be so thrilled about. I dislike religious fundamentalism in any form so even if I met the person and liked them I would still be very wary of them. This isn't racism this is my prejudice against all people with extreme religious beliefs not just Muslims.

Someone wearing a burka or niqab would be unable to do my job and they wouldn't be allowed to. Which makes me think that women who wear a burka or niqab are vastly limiting their choices when it comes to employment.

And reducing their chances of having financial independence.

Extreme Islam is a reaction to feminism and those who call themselves feminists who ignore this are not feminists at all.

it has nothing to do with countries being divided, the wars over oil the british and french control in middle eastern countries

of course it is the fault of women

tobiasfunke

I feel the same way as you.

I've never seen anyone wear a full burka until the other day, I was more interested than worried tbh.

In response to a gang rape, the Chief Mufti of Australia said, “If she was in her room, in her home, in her Hijab, no problem would have occurred.” By wearing the Burqa or Hijab, women participate in a narrative that gives rapists a pass for sexual assaults on women who don’t dress the way the Mufti or Imam says they should.
The Koran gives a similar justification for a head to toe covering for women, “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested.” (Koran 33:59)

This distinction between women who can be ‘molested’ and those who cannot is what makes the Burqa such an explosive addition to Europe—which is already suffering from a high rate of Muslim sexual assaults on non-Muslim women.
The Burqa divides women into “good girls” and “whores” and gives potential rapists, religious ammunition for their crimes.
Banning the Burqa protects women who choose not to wear it from being assaulted because of their perceived immodesty.

Nancy66, you know, thinking back, I don't think I remember the women eating that day either. I remember a few of the men coming back from the snack bar with lots of kofti's, chips, burgers etc but I cannot remember if I saw the women eat .

I know there was a huge celebration that night in one of the restaurants (It was the end of Ramadan), and only that family were allowed in, so maybe they were saving themselves for that.

Shit if not. They did drink though, they had waterbottles and lots of chilled pop etc.

so a burqa will stop a muslim man from being a rapist

yes of course because a women wearing hotpants and a cropped top is asking for it

men rape because they want to it has nothing to do with how they perceive their victim to be, that is all excuses they choose to make and tragically society often accepts this so it allows men to get away with rape

We saw women in Egypt, wearing full veils, which were black. My first thought was they must be roasting, as it was so blinking hot.

We aren't very multicultural round here, so I've only seen people in the passing, but I imagine holding a conversation with someone in a full veil would be slightly strange, as humans get so much from facial expressions.

Freudian - so what's your view on burqas? Do you have any

i posted before

i am not keen on seeing women covering up totally as the history of covering (pre islam, used to hide younger women while being transported by slave masters) but i do know many women are choosing to wear a niqab, islam in our society is evolving and it is not always in line with what we may think is for the better. younger women in europe are expressing their right to be able to choose what they wear this may not have been possible for their parents and grandparents

burkas and niqabs are different, i know many women who are choosing to wear a niqab but not a burka

traditionally a burka is more restrictive especially the blue ones worn by women in afganistan

but i will always argue for a woman to have a choice and really detest the poor muslim women have no choice that is so often implied on these threads

Jimmy in islam, men have a role to fulfil and women have a role to fulfil. The woman is categorically NOT inferior to man.

There are many many practices in the Western society which dehumanizes women too, albeit many are brain washed to accept that as a norm and some deluded enough to think that is fine and empowering.

I've seen burkas on a number of occasions in London. Niqab is more usual, though. You certainly get huddles of women wearing them outside Selfridges.

My understanding of the French situation is that a) France is a secular society, post revolution, and they do not allow any obvious religious symbols to be worn in certain situations, such as school or government offices, and b) (I think) because the French way of dealing with immigration is integration not multiculturalism, i.e. that it is for immigrants to integrate into the French way of life (whereas over here we might celebrate Diwali by councils putting up lights in places like Tooting, as well as for Christmas, for example).

The thing I find most distressing, and it's not uncommon, is seeing young girls in a hijab. That is surely cultural rather than religious - how can a little girl need to 'dress modestly'? It sends such an awful message to those children.