to worry about the accused?

[WitchWay]

DLT for example. How is anything going to be proven? Are people jumping on a bandwagon or am I very wrong to even think that? I don't condone abuse - far from it - but surely they can't all have been sailing along in JS's wake - can they?

Thanks for the comments & link about Devil's advocacy - I'm pretty new to MN & hadn't realised this was thought inappropriate - please accept my apologies

Witch

I do work in an area which deals in part with victims & perpetrators of sexual crimes & have seen it from both sides & have also heard confessions of "making it up to cause trouble". I have also been the victim of (pretty low-level I must admit) sexual abuse myself - long ago & dealt with. I would never want to belittle anyone's point of view or experiences - they are all valid & worthy of attention.

I must admit, I'm surprised at your line of work, witchway.

I have re-read your OP several times - and it seems to show an internal struggle of:

Will they get a fair trial with the press attention - vs - are victims making up accusations as these are high profile people "jumping on the bandwagon" -vs- but they can't all be making it up can they? -vs these people are well-loved childhood tv stars.

I hope you've read the whole thread - there are some very knowledgeable responses about the way the judiciary deals with evidence like this which should put your mind at rest, on the first question, at least. Regarding evidence, independent witnesses, the accused's modus operandi etc.

If you're new to MN you might want to read the threads that lead to the WBY campaign - they are linked on the campaign page. They are very moving and a lot of women find MN a supportive place when discussing sexual assault and dv. Unfortunately, the downside of that is that the site acts as a magnet to people who seek to minimise women's experiences and emphasise 'false accusations' and the like.

In fact - it was abusive trolling spreading rape myths on a historic thread about rape that lead to the MN WBY campaign in the first place.

Erm it isn't MN that thinks playing with people's experiences is disrespectful and inappropriate. It just is disrespectful and inappropriate.

Too true, scallops.

I'm not sure playing is the right term really. I often have to approach problems at work from unexpected & sometimes controversial directions & have to risk causing offence in order to obtain the information I need. No I am not a lawyer.

And how does that translate to this thread ? What information do you need?

Oh and if you are minimising or dismissing women's experiences of sexual assault in your work, then yes you are being disrespectful and inappropriate. That is what I meant by 'playing'. Being all hypothetical when it is real women and real assaults that took place.

Of course I'm not minimising women's experiences of assault (or men's for that matter)

Obtaining information (posted above) didn't relate particularly to assault but to all situations when I'm trying to get to the bottom of something. Sexual problems, assault, DV, other crimes all form part of what I cover at work.

You have minimized women's experiences of sexual assault on this thread.

Not too sure what the relevance of your job is, but saying as you have brought it up, I'm a bit to learn that your profession involves dealing with gendered crimes such as DV, sexual assault, etc.

Gendered crimes can be the other way round of course. I merely tried to consider the effects of being accused on the accused, in cases where allegations were false or exaggerated. I agree my job is irrelevant - not sure why I bothered to mention it really. Dealing with the aforementioned stuff forms part of my work, but is far from being all of it. Sorry you are but there you go.

Btw - going back to Suzanne's posts this morning on cyberbullying - this 'ere isn't cyberbullying. Suzanne hasn't been bullied - in fact he's the one dishing out the insults.

This is a thread discussion with a poster being called out on their misogynistic peddling of rape myths - wrapped up as 'concern for a fair trial'. It's not surprising to me that many people hold these views - they are deeply ingrained in society. But these views can, and should be challenged.

This is cyberbullying.

Shame on you "SuzanneUK" for conflating the two.

I think Suzanne has left us.

I wonder if Suzanne would be happier with the system at work in certain countries where an acquittal of the accused results in the rape victim automatically being guilty of adultery or unlawful sex and herself being subject to penalties. After all it must be a false accusation.

I'm really shocked by her posts.

I merely tried to consider the effects of being accused on the accused, in cases where allegations were false or exaggerated.

Why did you choose to do it by taking real life cases of sexual assault that happened to real live women?

Why not post a general hypothetical thread about what it is like in general to be accused of something you haven't done?

Why minimize real sexual assault that happened to real women?

Like it doesn't happen enough.

Weird thread frankly. And a bit disturbing.

DLT hasn't been falsely accused, he and his victims are totally irrelevant to your musings.

I merely tried to consider the effects of being accused on the accused, in cases where allegations were false or exaggerated

How about: it's not very nice to be accused of lying when you're telling the truth?

That was a hotly disputed case which, following his conviction, is still very much alive in the form of an Internet campaign for his release and for the quashing of his conviction.

The Ched Evans case is only disputed by his family and friends.

He had sex with a woman. He did not have consent. That is rape. He said at trial he asked his friend if he 'could have a go'. He didn't even ask her.

Additionally, she was found to be too drunk to consent, so even if he had asked she could not legally consent.

so sex without consent = rape.
sex with someone not capable of consent = rape.

Incidentally the woman did not make an accusation of rape, she could not remember what happened and that is what she reported to the police.

So it could not have been a false accusation because there wasn't one.
The defendant said he had sex and said he did not ask for consent.
She was too drunk to legally consent.

On what planet could he be found not guilty?

I don't know who Ched Evans was however the website in support of him states.

"Furthermore, we recognise and acknowledge that in rape cases the anonymity of the victim is a fundamental legal principle that should be upheld and respected."

I expect that is on there because a bunch of ched's supporters named her on twitter and sent her threats and encouraged others to do so as well.

It's a bit rich is, I think, the response to that.

Just googled and I hadn't realised Ched Evan's victim ended up having to be given a new identity.

How absolutely appalling.

I actually haven't accused anyone of lying limitedperiod

And it wasn't all about DLT Beach I used him as an example

Where did I say you had accused anyone of lying OP?

I just pointed out that when you are telling the truth and people either don't believe you, or feel like playing Devil's Advocate with your life, it's hurtful, no matter what side of the fence you're on.

We've all been there, so why do you find that so hard to understand that you were prompted to ask a question about a current case that contained the distasteful term: 'jumping on the bandwagon'?

How about: it's not very nice to be accused of lying when you're telling the truth? - was that not about me a few posts up the page?

I used the current case of DLT as an example. I wanted to promote discussion. I have genuine concerns about lack of anonymity regarding the accused in court cases especially with the rise & rise of social media. I have apologised for playing Devil's advocate. I have concerns about what motivates some people. I have regrets & sadness about some of those being found guilty - sadness for their victims, sadness for my/our/society's misconstruing their behaviour/ sadness/shame for them in a small way that they had to abuse their position.

I have regrets & sadness about some of those being found guilty - ... sadness for my/our/society's misconstruing their behaviour...

What do you mean by that item in your list?

just googled and I hadn't realised Ched Evan's victim ended up having to be given a new identity.

Is that so, nicetabard? I imagined that she came from such a small community and there was so much hostility towards her that it would probably be better for her just to keep her name and move away.

That's a black partial joke, btw. It's bad enough having to leave your hometown through no fault of your own, let alone having to change all your banking, passport, DVLA etc etc details.

I read her name on Twitter. I've forgotten it, because it means nothing to me, no disrespect to her.

But I truly hate those people who've hounded her.

Ched Evans is a rapist. No ifs. No buts. It was the verdict of a jury who acquitted another man.

For me, that compounds Evans's guilt, because that jury really thought about it and acquitted one man and not the other.

To say that some people believe her and some people believe him is puerile.

He's a rapist.

OP - maybe it wasn't deliberate on your part, but there's a certain euphemistic language that comes into play when people, with certain dubious agendas, want to belittle and minimise sexual assault. A lot of posters on MN recognise it straight away and call it.

"Jumping on the bandwagon" is one of them - because it implies that women make up stories about rape for attention/ (the fun of it?)/money. Now I know that malicious false allegations do exist - but to make them a centre-point of discussion about sexual assault encourages people to think that it happens far more often than is actually the case.

Getting a sexual assault/rape trial to court is unbelievably invasive, upsetting and uncertain. Many women decide not to report as a result, or later withdraw their complaints - precisely because the police/court procedure is difficult enough, and the culture that we live in encourages women's experience of sexual assault to be minimised or not believed. Countless examples upthread, sadly. Even on MN.