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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to worry about the accused?

539 replies

WitchWay · 20/01/2014 20:12

DLT for example. How is anything going to be proven? Are people jumping on a bandwagon or am I very wrong to even think that? I don't condone abuse - far from it - but surely they can't all have been sailing along in JS's wake - can they?

OP posts:
NiceTabard · 22/01/2014 01:15

Anyone who can't be bothered to read all the posts on a thread about rape really isn't worth the paper they're written on.

FFS people could have said anything.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 22/01/2014 01:24

I think relatively new posters don't know the ethos of MN/ haven't read the threads that led up to the "We Believe You" campaign - I'm being kind here.

The number of women who shared their stories was staggering. It's a very sensitive, personal subject - the law fails these women. And not just the law - their families, husbands, friends - not believing them. People who suffered child abuse at the hands of a relative - not being believed. This is a lot of women's lived experience.

In view of this, there are some very crass posters on this thread.

fcukkedup · 22/01/2014 01:24

sad thing is NICE it wouldt be brought up in court - there could be a thousand reports, it wouldn't be classed as allowable evidence.

caruthers · 22/01/2014 01:32

There is a kind of sycophantic hypocrisy flooding through this thread.
And in my opinion it damages MN when honest debate is hijacked by speech makers and trouble causers.

However some posters have tried to make a point through all of this bitter and obtuse barrage although it was fruitless.

NiceTabard · 22/01/2014 01:38

Please do elucidate, caruthers.

You haven't indicated what your views are.

NiceTabard · 22/01/2014 01:41

FWIW an enormous, overwhelming majority of posters said that the OP was being unreasonable to worry about the accused.

OP said she was concerned that Dave Lee Travis is currently in court because of women "jumping on the bandwagon". Overwhelming majority of posters said WTF. A few have had other views. Why not add another to the picture.

BillyNotQuiteNoMates · 22/01/2014 05:02

Where did the OP go btw?

WitchWay · 22/01/2014 07:13

I'm here, just come down for breakfast Smile

Things have become a bit lively - I was hoping for a good discussion and look what I got!

OP posts:
curlew · 22/01/2014 07:36

I think the reason threads like this get so heated is that women are socialized since birth to believe that the needs of men are more important than the needs of women. Of course the conditioning is so subliminal that we can genuinely say that they don't believe that at all. But it means that sometimes in situations where men are being treated equally we are so used to them being advantaged that it looks like unfairness. Any institution or individual which does not automatically give men the upper hand and the benefit of the doubt is seen as anti man.

Beachcomber · 22/01/2014 08:14

I think you are right curlew.

Which is why we see such contradictory attitudes to rape/sexual violence.

It is seen as a dreadful, terrible, life damaging thing for a man to be accused of and, simultaneously, as something that just happens to women.

Which is why people seem to care terribly about the tiny possibility of an innocent man being accused of rape (who is certainly not going to get mistakenly convicted) and seem to be able to brush off the fact that 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes, and that 94% of those women will not feel able to seek legal recourse but will have to live with the fall out of their being attacked for the rest of their lives.

And as Sabrina says, we know this is very real due to the distressing threads on here where women share experiences of sexual violence, and, the We Believe You campaign.

This hand wringing over the likes of DLT, etc is just that. Look at some of the comments on this thread about how things were different in those days and a girl should just put up with a bit of groping and unwanted touching.

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 08:14

I was hoping for a good discussion and look what I got! (says the OP)

After a lively and essentially intelligent discussion, the mysterious NiceTabard appeared late in the day and posted a series of what amount almost to vicious and destructive lies about the views I've expressed on this thread.

Other members then joined in and appeared to revel in the bullying, despite claiming to deplore victim-bashing in real life.

That was the most dramatic and deplorable deterioration of a thread I've ever seen in my life.

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 08:17

Look at some of the comments on this thread about how . . . a girl should just put up with a bit of groping and unwanted touching.

Has anybody really said that?

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 08:19

Which is why people seem . . . able to brush off the fact that 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes

Has anybody really said that?

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 08:23

rape/sexual violence.

It is seen as something that just happens to women

I'm assuming the stress in that sentence is on 'happens' rather than on 'women' but has anybody really said that?

Beachcomber · 22/01/2014 08:28

From the link;

As Stephen House, Chief Constable of Police Scotland explains: “From a police perspective there is nothing to suggest either anecdotally or evidentially, that false reporting of rape is prevalent, in fact such cases are very rare. We recognise that there are many reasons why a victim would subsequently withdraw from the criminal justice process and we are trying to get a better understanding of why that is and what we can do to improve confidence in the system. What we do know however is that of those rape cases that we later reclassify as no crime, only a very small proportion of those are as a result of a false report, so few in fact that ordinarily the statistics would merit no further debate”.

The perception that large numbers of allegations of rape are false is very damaging to women, and to survivors of rape in particular. It reinforces prejudicial attitudes to complainers – for whom the barriers to justice are already considerable, with women already scrutinized and judged on many irrelevant factors (dress, flirting, alcohol consumption etc) – even when an allegation is taken seriously. It is the evidence, not the complainer, which must be tested and examined. But popular myths that women cannot be trusted perpetuate a relentless focus on their motives, sexual history, demeanour, credibility and behaviour, leaving perpetrators able to remain unchallenged by comparison, in relative obscurity. In some cases, this has allowed serial offenders (as in the cases of John Worboys and Kirk Reid) to act with total impunity and continue attacking women, sometimes for many years, as a result of doubt being cast on the words of their victims.

The principle that an accused man is innocent until proven guilty should not mean that women should be presumed in many cases to be liars. The low level of reporting among rape victims is already to a large degree attributable to a fear among many that they will not be believed – and a grossly exaggerated perception of the extent to which false allegations of rape occur only makes this worse, exacerbating the fear many women considering reporting experience, that they will not be believed if they do. Conversely, there is no evidence that large numbers of men are being falsely accused of rape.

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 08:30

We're now well over 400 posts and I believe everybody on this thread agrees that:

a) sexual assault is a deplorable crime which nobody should be expected to endure

and

b) a person charged with sexual assault should receive a fair trial

And yet anyone expressing view 'b' on this thread is assumed not to hold view 'a'.

Why?

Beachcomber · 22/01/2014 08:32

SuzanneUK - my post was in response to curlew. I'm talking about general societal attitudes to sexual violence.

HTH

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 08:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Beachcomber · 22/01/2014 08:55

Surely it should be;

a) sexual assault is a deplorable crime which nobody should be expected to endure and victims should have the support they need with regards to seeking legal recourse. Which includes not perpetuating the rape myth that women lie about sexual violence when the stats clearly show that they very rarely do (no more than general figures for crime across the board), and the gross inflation of the idea that false accusations is common, prevents women from reporting crimes of a sexual nature for fear of not being believed. Reporting figures and by consequence convictions are extremely low for this type of very serious, and unfortunately very common, crime. That is very concerning and action is long overdue.

b) a person charged with sexual assault should receive a fair trial

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 09:04

Surely it should be;

a) sexual assault is a deplorable crime which nobody should be expected to endure and victims should have the support they need with regards to seeking legal recourse. Which includes not perpetuating the rape myth that women lie about sexual violence when the stats clearly show that they very rarely do (no more than general figures for crime across the board), and the gross inflation of the idea that false accusations is common, prevents women from reporting crimes of a sexual nature for fear of not being believed. Reporting figures and by consequence convictions are extremely low for this type of very serious, and unfortunately very common, crime. That is very concerning and action is long overdue.

The point remains that wanting a fair trial for the alleged offender is taken to indicate an absence of support for victims.

And that suggests blind fanaticism on the part of those who hold 'a' and 'b' to be incompatible views.

SuzanneUK · 22/01/2014 09:08

And discussing the accused's right to a fair trial on a thread the very subject of which is 'caring about the accused' hardly seems unreasonable.

Beachcomber · 22/01/2014 09:21

No it isn't.

You are making that up. It is a strawman.

Perpetuating rape myths about women falsely accusing men of rape erodes support for victims. And reporting levels. And conviction levels. Significantly. To the point that Rape Crisis, the police and QCs publish statements on this misogynistic and damaging phenomenon.

fcukkedup · 22/01/2014 09:22

you didn't just discuss the accused rights to a fair trai - it appears you dont believe guilty verdicts.

And you compared being sexually abused and raped to arguing with people on the internet.

And so on and so forth.

The link belies shows - in 17 months there were 35 false reports out of well over 100, 000 - and of those few - at least some had been victims of something.

Statistically it's minute and as such merits minute attention. So the study showed false reporting accounting for less than 1 percent.

NiceTabard · 22/01/2014 09:28

I have never been called mysterious on here before Grin

I think that the tally of deletions is often a good indicator of whether a person is a reasonable poster or not Smile