To have expected this woman to move seats

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I was on the train back from London, with a first class ticket. In the carriage there was one space available for a buggy with a seat facing it, also described as disabled access. I arrived just as a woman was putting her things on the seat, I said excuse me do you think I could put my buggy here? She goes yes but sits down in the seat opposite it. Uh... I said do you think I could have that seat so I can look after my child during the journey and she starts moaning saying she's booked in advance and wants to sit in her booked seat. I asked her does she have a specific need which means she needs this seat, she says no. I said well I'm sure you don't want to meet the needs of my child for three hours do you? How about you let me have that seat so I can look after my DD and if someone comes on a disputes you being in that free seat we'll deal with it then. She then moans more saying she's booked and why is she being made out to be in the wrong, lots of eye rolling and tutting on her part. I say she can sit in 99% of the seats available and I need this 1%, I need this one seat. Eventually she moves but behaves as if she's been evicted and sits with a cats arse face for most of journey sighing everytime my dd dared utter a gurgle. Seriously? Is this unreasonable of me?

Loggie, lying on the floor on a rollmat. As I detailed above.

Thanks Parsing, I missed your second post.

youthecat is right that it is not always a good idea to take the "best" (or disabled access) seats as you could end up stuck with nothing if disabled person requires them.

HOWEVER once on the way back from Italy we were on easyjet flight and air hostess moved some young women so that DH and I could sit together with our then 1 year old dd. This was because it was better for her to sit on dh (bigger lap/chest etc/ found it easy to hold her for 2 hours than i did) but she wanted to be with me. We didn't ask her to do this but we were dithering about and she stepped in. This was before easyjet booked seats but we got on last to avoid scary bunfight.

Just to show there is a school of opinion out there that it is nice to be extra kind to people travelling with small children and that it is harder than travelling alone/with other adults (well, depends on the adults, but that's another story)... In Italy (which is not perfect culture by any means but good in this respect) I think there would be no debate that OP needed that space, or at least that it would be the done thing to give it to her.

I agree however that PP should not have moved from her booked seats so that women with teenage daughters could have them.

I have travelled long and short distance on trains since my toddler was a baby and unless it's a very short journey and busy train. Ie I'm stuck in the doorway I always fold and sit down elsewhere. I really can't understand why you wouldn't on a 3 hour journey. I find virgin trains particularly bad with a pushchair.

I have often been given a seat on a short journey so that I could sit with a child on my lap.

However, the idea that somebody should give up their booked seat so I could sit with my child in their buggy in the wheelchair space is just plain odd.

It just isn't that big a deal to have a child on your lap.

Also, pretty much anything is harder to do with a toddler. That doesn't mean it isn't completely manageable.

Am I allowed to ask OP what you would have done if a wheelchair user with a REAL NEED had boarded the train? WOUld you have said tho s space is for buggies and I was here first??? Or would you have graciously moved and sit in another seat with DC having folded the buggy down? If so I don't really see how you can get to worked up about it as you would HAVE to of managed then assuming you would have done the decent thing and let the wheelchair user into your precious seat

I think a plane journey is different though as you are not going to have too many people for the seats available. It is highly likely to happen on a train though.

Sitting somewhere which isn't your booked seat, where you are possibly going to have the upheaval of moving, is just not sensible.

On East Coast trains you can book a specific seat (though I have no idea on booking the disabled/priority seats as I have never tried to book one). They do allocate you a seat based on your preferences but you can look at the seating plan and change it when you book online. It isn't rocket science.

That would have been the dream scenario:

1. Op settles down in the seat she has hounded the woman out of.

1. Train fills to capacity all seats are taken.

1. A wheelchair user gets on (and probably after pressure from the train guard) op vacates wheelchair area

1. Op spends remainder of journey in vestibule whilst yhe woman she turfed out snuggly ensconced in her seat. Waves occasionally to op.

Personally I would have taken my dd out of pushchair and put her in a seat if in first class because as others have said it is never at all full.

It may well have been that the only reason the woman didn't move was that OP didn't use very polite tone.

That is obviously a mistake on her part as the woman was doing nothing wrong being there to begin with.

However, I do find it surprising that on something called mumsnet people have so little sympathy towards mums! Not just on this thread but on the many that seem to think there is no reason in the world why anyone would make allowances or help them in any way.

I have sympathy/empathy. I would have offered to help her fold/hold the baby etc - no problem at all, but it is the self-entitled attitude just because she has a toddler that has got people's backs up.

You can book specific seat on east coast (and others I think) as I've done it lots of times. I've got a seat that I like in first class (weird I know!) but it's not in a place anyone could have a "need" of - it's just that it gives me somewhere nearby to put my trolley bag.

I think she just found it stressful and sort of assumed other woman would be more sympathetic.

It has the same "feel" as those threads where people say there's no need for p and c parking spaces and any fit young chap on his own should be allowed to park there. P and c spaces are not life and death but in my view they are a good thing if they take a bit of the additional stress out of doing things with kids. In the same way it would be nice if people kept in mind the additional stress of travelling with small kids.

I think the lack of sympathy is because:

1. We know that 3 hours on a train with one toddler on your lap is potentially a bit boring but not a big deal.
2. Attitude and language of OP.
3. Parents of young children generally do require understanding and consideration from the general public for genuine reasons. Entitled behaviour like this doesn't help anybody.

No idea about other threads.

On normal trains don't they have a wheelchair space that says you can use with a pushchair if no wheelchair and a bicycle if no wheelchair or pushchair - this seems to be a fair order of priorities?

I travelled with a pushchair on Thameslink trains to and from GOSH when my dd was tiny baby, often in rush-hour and it was a nightmare. She was obviously in newborn pram at that time, not a foldy one. If you couldn't get into the space (there were never wheelchairs at that time but sometimes people sitting on the fold up chairs) it was really hard. Plus the medical condition she had meant she didn't sleep AT ALL at night so I was not at my best. She couldn't go in the sling carrier as didn't attain the minimum weight for it until about 2 months old and if I tried she screamed.

If dh could come with me on early trains that helped but wasn't always possible.

I did hope that people would be helpful to me in those circs!

In last post I mean posts not threads saying "i'd have told you where to go".

Oh well we part company on this one oh shouting crowd. I think I did the right thing, I think I stood up for all the mums who feel like an inconvenience to other people because they have small children. She was a tutter and an eye roller, the worst sort who glares at mums when kids have tantrums. I will do the same if the situation ever arises again. Thanks for your feedback but the more I hear your arguments the more I know I was justified. Have child and buggy, will travel

Amazing that you seem to have missed the point that almost everyone commenting is a mum with small children who has managed to use public transport without making a massive song and dance about how precious they are

It's not like you've come to a forum full of childless business commuters and had a hard time!

So you still think you weren't in the wrong? Ffs I would eye roll at you too.

I think I did the right thing

No you didn't.