To think that if we are not going to pay benefits to foreigners because they haven't contributed

[IceBeing]

then we should also not pay benefits to people born in the UK that haven't contributed?

Like my grandmother...she's never paid any tax (married early when married women weren't expected to work). Or my cousins who have not been able to find work since leaving school. Or many of the locals around here who have not had work in their family for three generations now. Or my friend's brother with Downs Syndrome who has never worked.

Alternatively..and this might be crazy....maybe the point of benefits is to support people who can't support themselves, whatever the reason, irrespective of whether or not they have been able to in the past and also irrespective of where they or they parents happen to have been born.

[Dawndonnaagain]

benefits elsewhere

[Rosa]

In Italy ( basically as it is more complicated) its one "CB" payout of maximum €1200 but its earning based so if you earn more than €30.000 you get zero. Unemployment benefit ...only if you have contributed. Job seekers - non existent and Housing benefit nope but you can apply for a council owned house and pay reduced rent and there are very few of those as well.... On the subject. Medical GP is free but any test- blood, xray etc you pay a 'prescription charge' and then a contribution charge ranging from €5-15 as the charge then the prescription is a %. DH and I had routine blood tests and it cost €120... We are NOT high earners.....

[perplexedpirate]

Wah-hey whisk, I think you're in there!

[3asAbird]

I assume most eu countries pay child benefit.

but do they pay if the child claiming for does not live in that country

are their more conditions attached ie income levls and is it more or less per child or restructed to number of kids in other countries.

How does healthacre work in other eu countries is it insurance like the usa?

I think up until recent years greek benefots t greeks very genrous then they realised people getting more out than paying in lots tax evasion in greece.

income tax higher in france.

My freinds in ireland says very expensive over there compared to uk and recession been tough on them.

[Rosa]

3as see 2 my previous post for details on italy ..
Tax here is higher than the UK i believe.

[snakeandpygmy]

SuzanneUK - you are Katie Hopkins and I claim my £5!

[UrethraFranklin]

One of KH's biggest fans is clearly on this thread

[UrethraFranklin]

X-post snake

[GlassOfPort]

As an immigrant, may I just point out that many of us are highly educated professionals and that through our taxes we CONTRIBUTE to the benefits paid to British people? (which is only right...being constantly portrayed as leeches, on the other hand, is exteremly irritating...)

[Dawndonnaagain]

Well said, GlassOfPort

[DirtyDancing]

I don't think people realise the cost implications of paying benefits to all these people. The NHS, schools, transport services are all ready at breaking point. Why should we spend valuable money & resources bailing out people who have moved here from other countries & are unable to support themselves? Sometimes charity has to begin at home

[Hechan]

Other EU countries also pay child benefit for children not living in that country.
My kids live in Ireland with me. Until recently I got my child benefit from the Netherlands. You can't pick and choose who pays your cb, there are cross border rules, so I was getting dutch cb of approx €440 per quarter instead of the €840 I would have got in Ireland.
And you can't just show up and demand cb for your imaginary kids, we got a bunch of forms twice a year from both countries.

[wobblyweebles]

DirtyDancing If you stop thinking of them as 'they' and start thinking of them as 'us' you'll get your answer.

[FanFuckingTastic]

I'm sure it doesn't even occur to some people that there is more than one category of immigrant. They all just come here to steal our benefits obviously.

Ignorance is a sad thing, people don't take the time to try and understand, they just get angry and judgmental and find that scapegoat to blame. Made easier by the biased media right now I must say.

Having read some of the Benefits Streets comments, I can honestly say I'd rather spend my time in the company of immigrants and benefits recipients, because some of the abuse I've seen directed at them is simply vile and shows where the problem in this country is, it's not the poor, the disabled, the children, or the people from another country, it's the sheep who as so easily led by what they see on TV and by a corrupt, self-interested government who only want to fill their own pockets in the time they are in office. This country will never change while they believe the telly box and beat down those struggling to get by in life, instead of questioning the ethics of our own government.

[softlysoftly]

I have no answer to the benefits conundrum but I will say that I wish people would stop trotting out the "go for nasty big business tax avoiders"

Ok they may not pay the full rate of tax through perfectly legal loopholes but how much tax do they pay??

A relative of mine ran a business employing over 300 people for 70+ years (father to son), created the only employment in a community previously mining. Paid £000000s in income tax, corporation tax, vat, national insurance, paye etc etc. Export and national sales. When he sold the business he used a perfectly legal tax avoidance scheme. Still paid millions in capital gains but less than the "normal" %.

By your statement that makes him a bastard thief ripping off our country more than the 1000s who have never contributed.

[GlassOfPort]

DirtyDancing, while the idea of restricting benefit claims from people who have just arrived seems sensible, I can't help wondering whether these proposals are being put forward to address a real problem (Hundreds of thousands of EU citizens alreday live in the UK, if they had bankrupted the welfare state, Channel 4 would have probably told us by now..) or they are just a political stunt.
What annoys me is that by proposing benfit curbs, the government is perpetuating the steroptype of the immigrant as a burden on public services. No wonder people think we are all benefit scroungers...

[YoureBeingASillyBilly]

Nope- thick as fuck is pretty obvious regardless of where its coming from

[tarantula]

Don't see why people are complaining about child benefit being paid to people who are working in this country; after all those people are paying tax here so of course their cb should come from here. If I was living in Donegal and working in Derry then I would pay taxes to the UK and therefore it seems logical that the cb should come from the uk too and under EU law the opposite would also be true so someone living in Tyrone and working say in Cavan would get Irish cb instead.
AFAIK if you are living in Ireland and get UK cb this is then topped up by the Irish gov to the amount they pay as that is more. Same is I belive true in Germany so suspect it may be the same across the EU.

[FudgefaceMcZ]

There are other ways of contributing than financial. I don't like that the supposedly anti-racist side of the 'immigration debate' has decided to take up classism instead and bash UK poor people rather than combating all forms of discrimination- I think it harms your cause and makes you look overprivileged and intolerant.

In practical terms, in light of the way the EU works, I would think the best solution would be a reciprocal agreement, something like the E111 medical card system, so that people moving within the EU are covered by their own government if they become unemployed or disabled, in order not to unduly burden countries who have democratically decided to promote equality through a social security system above those who are less responsible towards their citizens. Countries who refuse to participate could either repay social security payments for individuals to the government from whom they are claimed, or pay for their citizens to return 'home' should they become unable to support themselves in another country. The capitalist system has created the need for quite extreme geographical mobility, so it is reasonable to expect it to cover the fallout of this in terms of community inability to support vulnerable individuals when everyone is forced to move for work or work rather than carrying out caring responsibilities.

As an aside, are UK citizens allowed to move to Scandinavian countries and benefit from their more generous social security systems? I don't think we are, so I don't see how there is an equivalence here. I would certainly choose to move to a country which provided free childcare if I could, but I believe (and have looked into this, so am fairly informed) that without a job offer, enough money to support myself indefinitely, or a legal partner with the appropriate nationality, I am not allowed to move there. I don't see why anyone would move to the UK to claim benefits all other things being equal, when Scandinavia is far more generous for these.

[Joysmum]

Those coming here as economic migrants should only be able to claim what they'd be entitled to from their home country.

[wobblyweebles]

Those coming here as economic migrants should only be able to claim what they'd be entitled to from their home country.

Only makes sense if they should also only pay the taxes they'd be due if they were in their home country.

[IceBeing]

wobbly interesting point there....

[PortofinoRevisited]

I am in Belgium and AFAIK was entitled to claim nothing when I first arrived. Dd got CB due to DH's work initially. That is more generous than the UK definitely and goes up for each child - eg 100 euros for DC1, 150 for DC1, 200 for DC 3 etc. Also. if I lost my job I would be entitled to about 70% of my salary for a defined period. None of this good wage to JSA drop. Mind you we hand over more than 50% of gross salary in tax and NI. Child care is subsidised and tax deductible. School is free from age 2.5 and offers wrap round care as standard ie 7.30 to 6/6.30.

You need health insurance though and would have to pay for it, if not covered by your employer. A visit to my GP costs 23 euros and I can claim back about 17 euros. If me and dd both were ill and went at the same time - I would have to pay twice.

[charitymum]

So basically a whole thread about how we divide a little money between a lot of people - rather than focusing on the few people who have most of the money. Well played Cameron. Well played. Diversionary tactics at their best. Breeding hatred and envy; mistrust and intolerance through politics and media. Can't think of any occasion when that happened before or what the likely consequences might be.

[PortofinoRevisited]

We also have a great "service cheque" system which is designed to stamp out the black economy. If you want a cleaner/ironing/household jobs etc you buy cheques from a recognised agency. They cost 9 euros each - ie per hour. The employee is insured/gets NI and tax paid and actually takes home a larger amount. It is technically illegal to employ anyone cash in hand for domestic work. As they have to work through an agency it ensures that you only have workers with legal status.