to be pissed off that they seem to have lots more disposable cash than me?

[JRmumma]

Just to be clear, in not 'benefits bashing' but a friend of mine who chose not to return to work after DC3 as she worked out that tax credits and housing benefit would make her family 'no worse off', seems to have lots more money than me.

To explain my situation, i have 1DC and am on mat leave at present. When i go back to work, we will have less money than we do at the moment after work travel costs and childcare is paid for. I have to go back full time to enable us to survive even though i didn't want to, but accept that children are expensive and needs must. We are also having to seriously cut back on the few luxuries that we currently have (memberships/subscriptions).

Ive just discovered that my friend has just booked her second holiday for this year. Without saying where it is for fear of outing myself, its a v expensive holiday for her and hubby. The other holiday is a European all inclusive jobby for the whole family. All 3 DC also had expensive electronics for Xmas.

This really fucks me off. Where am i going wrong? If they have enough money for exotic holidays and all the latest mod cons, why are they receiving tax credits and housing benefit? And why oh why will the only holiday i get this year be a £9.50 sun holiday if both me and DH work full time and claim nothing?

Correction - the OP already said the WOMAN struggled to pay her phone bill

The fact that OP might be in the dark about this families finances and is questioning it does not automatically mean she is benefit bashing though.

I have sympathy for the OP. Benefits were never intended to fund foreign holidays - they were instituted as a safety net for those in need. If I were receiving benefits (whether or not working or non working benefits) whilst having luxuries like foreign holidays whilst claiming then I would be a little ashamed about claiming. If I was funding it from credit cards, then the same applies as I would be less likely to ever be able to move off benefits. Benefits are not paid for by some magic fairy, it means money has been taken off other people, like the OP, to pay me.

The coalition recognises that some welfare benefits are not well targeted (eg subsidised council house rents for those who are now earning plenty, even though they were once in need) and is working to address this. However, change is always drawn out and difficult.

OP bear in mind that you are building your future with your return to work, so don't just look at what you can afford right now, but also look ahead. Also, be proud that you are not dependent on the state. That is the ideal for which we should all aim (not talking about universal benefits such as NHS, roads, child benefit and police btw as we all take from those equally).

Disclaimer: I am very much in favour of benefits for the needy, until they are back on their feet - or forever if they have permanent disability/needs.

Actually, WooWoo, it does, based on her OP. She is clearly bitching in her OP about the woman having more than the OP has. That's not concern over the welfare state, that's jealousy and greed.

ProfPlum - Council housing rents are NOT subsidised. They are self funded by the rents paid and set at realistic levels instead of massively inflated ones like the private sector.

So the OP can be 'proud' that she is not dependent on the state. Everyone who is can shuffle around eating humble pie and doffing their cap then

OP - you never really know what goes on behind closed doors.

Maybe the OP does feel jealous, but that's not a crime that makes her a horrible person, it a natural feeling to experience when you see someone taking state money and living with luxuries that they don't work when you yourself are working hard and are getting little in return.

I agree that OP might well be completely misguided about where the luxuries are coming from in this instance, but is it really that wrong to feel pissed off that someone who chooses not to work and claims benefits can afford a better standard of living than someone who provides for themselves?

Even if a lot of the stuff is on credit, it's either going to be paid back out of benefits or not be paid off at all. Either way, this family is still enjoying luxury at someone else's expense. That is a reasonable thing to be irritated by when you pay tax and your own credit charges.

The CB and TCs for their 3 DCs will be a lot more than for your one (obviously). If her DH earns minimum wage (about £13k per year) they will also be getting a similar amount of TCs and CB link, with HB on top and obv no childcare or work travel costs for your friend.
As others have said, housing and ‘normal spending’ varies enormously. Some people spend a lot on decorating and furnishing their homes, some people think it is necessary and normal to get coffee from Costa and lunch from Pret every single working day, without realising that this costs hundreds of pounds a month. Running two cars can cost a lot. Other people put a lot of effort into moneysaving and getting discounts on everything and buy all their food from the reduced counter/farm foods, rather than ready meals, fresh fish and out of season fruit from Ocado.
And ‘all inclusive foreign holidays’ are not necessarily a luxurious experience either. At the low quality end of the market, you will find a lot of tired hotels with low quality threadbare bedding and furnishings and beige buffet food that makes Iceland’s offerings look like gourmet cuisine.

I used to wonder how my cousin and his wife always had lovely holidays abroad, he worked but she was SAHM, they enjoyed takeaways on a regular basis, kids dressed in Uggs, Hollister. Used to rile me up and I was eaten away with jealousy. Turned out they had remortgaged their house, taken out a huge crippling remortgage and spent all the cash they had released, basically they spent it on crap. Now she has to work 2 jobs and he's in a job he hates but cant leave because they'll have a mortgage till he's 65.

Early on we struggled with high mortgage costs but as the years have gone on we have more disposable income, for someone on the outside looking in we have our own home with 5 years mortgage left to repay, 2 cars, 3 kids, one of which got an ipad for xmas. The reality is that we both work albeit part time for me, we bought our modest 3 bed terraced house 10 years ago at a bargain price, haven't had a holiday abroad since DS was born 18 years ago, don't smoke, rarely go out drinking, rarely have takeaways. Thats why we can afford 2 cars, nice things.

i'm still hankering for a week in the sun rather than a caravan though

I know someone who's never worked a day in her life, is on every benefit going but has been on 2 holidays abroad leaving her dd behind. I work part time, dp works full time yet we're unable to even afford a week away in this country. It's really depressing tbh

Maybe the OP does feel jealous, but that's not a crime that makes her a horrible person

Perhaps. But the whole "I'm not starting a benefits bashing thread, but..." is right up there with "I'm not racist, but...."

It does not matter how you try to ask a question on this site referring to some one on benefits appearing to have more money than some one in a similar situation who is working - there is always an outcry that they are 'benefit bashing' so, tell me all those who shout 'benefit bashing ' how is one supposed to ask a genuine question about this, or we quite simply not allowed to ask.
IMO it is never, ever right that some one should have more from benefits than some one working UNLESS there are genuine disabilities involved.

Yes, while I'm both a strong supporter of the welfare state...

Yep, me too. But there does seem to be a vocal number of people who believe that any criticism of the status quo or suggestions that our current system is unsustainable is shouted down as being benefit bashing and you must be Tory voting rich banker who only wants to pay less tax.

The numbers don't lie but all you get in response is "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA You Tory scum!"

The issue here is home ownership vs renting. Magaret Thatcher's government made the prospect of owning your own home achievable for many, many people who would otherwise be renters. That changed the housing market, with the expectation of the next generation that they should own their own homes.

The trouble with home ownership is that you not only have to be able to afford the mortgage, but also the home maintenance, buildings insurance, etc.

Your friends are renting. That means that if their income is below that deemed necessary by the Government, they will get some help towards their rent. The housing benefit allowances are:

£112.55 for the couple
£65.62 per child

So that's a total of £309.41 per week.

Then the following is disregarded from earnings:
Couple: £10

Then the premiums:
Family element £17.40
30 hours element: £17.10

So, they can have an income of £353.91 per week, after deductions, that's £18403.32 per year, or £22920 before tax salary.

The £18403.32 (after deductions) figure is for all income, including tax credits.

Every £ (after deductions) they get after that, will have a deduction of 65p.

In terms of tax credits, they will get an element per child, plus an element for working 30 hrs pls, and a family element. Then, every £ before tax that they get, over £6420, will see 41p deducted from that figure.

If you give a rough idea of salary, you'll be able to very easily work out the likely figures.

The point is that the deductions are fixed and uniform. It will always be better paid to be in work.

Don't be jealous OP! You really don't know what's going on with their finances. They seem to be spending irresponsibly and it will catch up to them one day.

I know someone who has all the luxuries: huge house, 3 kids in private school, flashy cars, holidays and new clothes on the hour. Turns out they are up to their eyeballs in debt despite having a very healthy income. Their mortgage alone is over 60% of their joint income and they are drowning in credit card debt. I wouldn't want their life for all the tea in china.

Anyone can spend beyond their means. There will always be people financially better off than you, and always people who SEEM TO BE but really aren't. You'll drive yourself crazy if you constantly compare yourself.

Lougle Before my husband got a job a few months ago, we were claiming housing benefit and we got £177 per fortnight for two adults and two children. In the expensive south.

Alice actually i know none of these things were bought for them or got for free. Yes they maybe doing it on credit but they still have to pay it off. Ive known these people all my life and and i can say with assurance that they shouldn't be able to afford it. They do not have a cold house and eat beans on toast all week, they do not scrimp and save.

I know its rude to ask how people afford things and i don't. But i know what they have and how much it cost because her DH talks about money all the time. For example, when they moved into their current home we went to visit and were given 'the tour'. Within 30 mins of being there i knew how much their rent was, how much each piece of new furniture cost and what they were planning to purchase and I never asked about any of it.

Too be honest. Most of the time i think good luck to them as I want my friend to have a nice life because i love her to bits. It just annoys me that at a time i am considering how on earth we are going to manage when i go back to work, they are able to spend so much on things that aren't essential.

That may be wrong in your eyes, and you may have a chip on your shoulder about receiving benefits, but if i want to vent about it then i will.

JRMumma Either they are in debt, or they are miraculously managing to prioritise very effectively, and you're not noticing what they don't buy. My money's on the former!

HRHLadyFarquhar, I'm sorry, I'm not sure what your point is?

You were eligible for £88.50 per week housing benefit, but unless you give your original rent it's quite impossible to work out how much you were topping that up, etc.

The income allowances for a family of two adults and two children with no disabilities is £217.19 per week, including tax credits.

I sometimes feel like this about my friend. She's a SAHM and her DH contracts on £600 per day. Because of the way tax works for contractors he puts a lot of the salary into a company and pays very little tax and is able to claim child benefit for their 4DC even though he earns 150k a year.

My point was that you were making it sound like all claimants eligible for full HB were automatically going to be receiving that much, and I foresaw people on here getting over-excited. Our income was CTC, DLA, and child benefit. That's all the HB we got.

Having spent most of my life working harder than others who were better off I definitely sympathise with op.
There is also a definite earning grade where people on benefits are better off than those working. I haven't got the references to hand but there have been lots of stories on bbc about this and similar issues lately, eg they've finally admitted that work is not a way out of poverty very recently. (Finally. I've known it for 15 years.). Obviously if you're on benefits, get childcare free and maybe even cheap rent on a fairly-secure council house, you're home and dry compared to some of us working, getting nothing and struggling.
The Green Party idea of giving every citizen in the country an allowance in place of all benefits, so then work is on top of that for all of us, sounds crazy at first but is looking more attractive to me.
House ownership is a definite cause of problems at the mo - it seems those who focus on acting sensibly and not borrowing more than we can afford are being penalised. Rents are high, you get nothing for it ten years down the line, and while you're paying it you can't save (plus the lifestyle choices it forces on you). It should be a big political issue right now but rich politicians don't give a monkey's arse about the have-nots. We need social housing, proper social housing back. Europe never lost it for Pete's sake. And a limit on how many houses 1 family can own. And proper affordable , really affordable housing back.

it's very naive to expect that the 'working poor' aren't going to feel resentment towards people they see doing fewer hours than them and appearing to enjoy a better quality of life.

That part is true - as long as you remember that it's about appearing to enjoy a better quality of life - and the government are quick to point it out in case you didn't think of it yourself. They point to the benefit claimants as the cause of all your problems while refusing to raise minimum wage (and failing to build more houses which would bring down mortgage costs) and reminding you that if you don't want to work for a pittance they can find someone who will.

It's always been a standard policy - not just in the UK - to pick one group of people and tell the rest they are the only problem. Remember when it used to be just single mothers? and if you go back far enough it used to be ethnic/religious minorities.

Let's not forget that most people on benefits are actually working, but due to the way it's been arranged can't avoid being on benefits too.