Ripping live animals apart is a wonderful British tradition that should be preseved.

[ItsAWonderfulCervix]

Let's overturn the ban. After all boxing day just isn't any fun without a few dead foxes and blood and guts and stuff.

And while we're at it, don't you just love a bit of badger baiting for variety When shredding foxes gets dull.

So animals dying of neglect is ok then?

I certainly agree with tougher penalties. If theyre prosecuting the right person.

The incident with the horse was that a woman bought a 2 year old colt. She knew nothing about horses. Thought she would be able to ride this horse around when it got off the lorry...

After a couple of weeks was bored of the animal and simply stopped coming to see to it.

When the yard manager (Who has two children, her own horse to look after, and who's living depends on people paying their stable rent so she was already down on her earnings due to a stable being taken up and no rent being paid on it) rang the rspca, They told her that if SHE did not look after the animal (which she had been doing, she wouldnt leave it to starve etc) and ensure it received any vet care etc out of her own pocket, they would prosecute HER for animal cruelty. Not the woman who abandoned the poor thing in the first place.

This isn't an uncommon thing. I know a few people who have had horses dumped on their land and the RSPCA have put the responsibility on the land owner, not the animal owner.

It really angered me. For all they knew she could be a struggling single mum working there (They didnt know whether she had her own horses etc) and they just didn't give a crap.

Oh, just to add, battery farming is not illegal, unlike Fox Hunting. This is a shame. The laws were changed recently but only to improve welfare (bigger cage, nesting box) not to abolish sadly.

Battery farming/intensive farming is a whole different ball game. Compassion in World Farming is a great organisation and I recommend a visit to their website.

It's disgusting that animals are dying of neglect Saggy. I compared setting a dog or cat on a pet as a comparison to how equally disgusting I find setting dogs on a fox.

Zebra, I have bought an abandoned pony from a landowner in the past. The lady you mention is perfectly in the right to sell this colt, either by auction (not preferred) or small ad in an equestrian publication. Where there is no neglect the RSPCA will not take the animal on.

Your Mother should have taken her dog to the vet if it was losing condition BEFORE it got thin enough to be taken away as a suspected cruelty case. Not treating a sick animal IS neglect. If she's elderly then you should have taken it for her. Are you telling me you'd ignore a skinny dog and not report it to the RSPCA?

Sleep - I know. It was me who told her how to solve it. She went round to her house in the end (She had avoided doing this in case of any false accusations as she wasnt sure where she stood) with witnesses as told her she could either pay what she owed and leave/sell it herself, Give it to her to sell on and any money would be taken in payment of stable rent, Or she'd just auction it. She gave it to her there and then.

But the RSPCA never explained this to her and as she'd not been in this situation before she didn't know. It had been going on for over a month before i moved on and told her what to do. She didn't want to risk breaking the law and because of the RSPCA felt she had no choice but to care for an animal that wasnt hers or face prosecution.

Happily, A girl on the yard who was outgrowing her own pony had him to start ground work with and eventually broke him in (It was a lovely little thing and i'd bet its making her a cracking pony). He just needed castrating and some good manners.

(The woman lied to get on the yard in the first place too! (Either that or she genuinely didnt know it was a boy with balls on?) she said it was a mare until YM saw its bits!).

The dog was years ago! Its been dead a long time! I was a child at the time. She had taken it to various vets and the RSPCA wouldn't listen. They themselves admitted after weeks of keeping it and testing and testing and testing that there was nothing physically wrong with it, it was just skinny. My mum has had dogs all her life and has never mistreated one or had an under weight dog through mistreatment. People who've seen her dogs often comment how much better they look within weeks of her having them (She used to have rescue dogs, and fostered until her bastard neighbour kept trying to poison them for some reason, and by the time she moved to get away from that prat she wasnt in a position to due to health).

They admitted that the only way it put on weight at all was with steroids. And then admitted that no matter what it would loose weight when it went home without steroids. And then said theyd take it again if they came out and found it had lost weight... (They didnt they never came again).

My mum even had three other dogs at the time all perfectly healthy looking.

And he wasn't losing condition, he never had any to begin with! He had always been skinny, she had him from a puppy. No one ever did find out why he was skinny. He outlived the normal ones and never showed any other sort of sign of ill health.

Oh and no i wouldn't ignore it, But i would expect common sense to be used - My mum had no problem with them being concerned and will admit herself she would expect an dog in his condition to be looked at. She handed him over for them to look at quite happily as 1) She knew she was doing nothing wrong and 2) She saw it as the only thing that could come of was a positive - either theyd find out something the vets shed been to had missed, or theyd have to admit it was nothing she personally was doing.

What she didnt expect was to be told 'we have managed to get him to put weight on, but only with steroids, but we wont give these to you and when he loses weight, which he will because we cant find anything wrong with him, we will come and take him again and do you for cruelty'. Thats the part she had a problem with - Them admitting that there was nothing she could do but threatening her anyway.

I live in the city, DB and DSIL live in the country. Their chickens get ripped to bits, my bins do. I have gone from being a massive hunt sab in the late 90s (from an animal rights perspective) to a more equivocal position now - and don't think city dwellers should tell country dwellers how to live nor vice versa. There's a massive argument in favour of hunting in the countryside - and for deer as well as foxes if this article is correct. OP, might be worth spending a bit more time with those affected by an inbalanced ecosystem than sounding off about it.

First of all hunting is not a city -v- country dweller argument. Both city and country residents can be pro and anti hunt.

The article you mention has nothing to do with hunting, it's about controlling certain animal numbers by culling. A cull which like any should be supported by strong science and carried out in the most humane way.
Specific areas, financial constraints etc are identified and have to be researched before it can go ahead as mentioned in the article.
Personally I believe fox hunting as a method of culling is deeply flawed. If foxes are a menace to farmers then if it is within the law for farmers to control it then they should do it efficiently, humanely and quietly, not by allowing an all singing and dancing horn blowing spectacle to prance across the land.

Interesting that it mentions deer causing road accidents. There was a good report about this on Countryfile or similar programme about how we actually contributed to this by building roads through their habitat and not leaving them with enough safe places to cross forcing them out onto the roads.

Interesting perspective RandyRudolf. I thought the article made a reasonable argument for a cull, and extrapolated that to the same for foxes - I was just trying to point out that for me personally, it's hard to argue one way or the other for the city, but from an anecdotal perspective there seems to be an argument for reintroducing culling of foxes in the country. I do wonder whether (as this was certainly the case for me a few years ago) the potentially necessary fox cull gets caught up with the discussion around class and how fox culls are conducted. Having seen now first hand the results of a fox entering a hen house I am somewhat less sympathetic than previously, but would be very interested to read more about pro/anti stances.

I think there is a clear distinction between the terms culling and hunting. To me a cull is something that as the article suggests requires much science based research and consideration. Hunting is to seek out and kill for fun or food or a sporting activity. It has no place in controlling populations and shouldn't be used as an excuse to do so.

Ah, ok - this might be where difference of opinion comes in. I thought as we'd be looking at a cull of 50% or more, hunting then might become the best and least costly option, and least wasteful, as the meat would get eaten if hunted whereas it might not if culled (or at least at a much greater cost to government and end consumer). Just to reiterate, I'm not about to saddle up with a rifle to go and fetch my own venison, but think that it isn't necessarily a bad idea if that happened. Hunting with dogs for vermin/foxes (and yes I do think foxes if uncontrolled are vermin) are probably a different thing. But if farmers (ones most affected by said foxes) are happy with hunting as a control method, then I'm not sure how much say should be had by those who aren't directly affected?

I think the most important consideration is the animal in that it should reach the end if it's days in the most humane way.

Just to put a quite different slant on things now i have RTFT (only read the first page before commenting, always an error!)

When I was a hunt sab, I was vegan, and had a very particular perspective on this - very moral high ground and very judgy.

Around 12 years ago having re-evaluated things, I started eating meat again, but only free range - so I eat a lot less of it than most people, unless I've had a very good month, or get given some by my DB who raises/hunts. There are sometimes occasions when this falls down when I eat a burger am only human. Rest of the time, when I can afford meat, it comes from a farm shop or Waitrose/other retailer who treats their farmers well.

I am just trying to point out my own hipocracy when I say... that I actually think unless, ethically, you're willing to butcher your own meat or accept the reality of it, then you shouldn't reallly eat it. I have - I've butchered chickens at my DB's house etc. I abhor the 'it just comes from the supermarket' mentality that many people have about meat, and when my DC is old enough to understand, will get that knowledge first hand, with all the respect for the animal that has died for our sustenance.

Foxes, OTOH, actively destroy and not for sustenance, animals we raise for slaughter. From a Darwinian perspective, what's wrong with culling them via dogs or any other method, in order to protect our own food source?

Hunts will often lose the fox and not have a Kill and many hunts are now drag hunts in part to ensure a safe trail for horse and rider therefore the argument that hunting on horseback with hounds is to control the fox population is weak to say the least as not that many foxes are killed. I think that people want to hunt because they enjoy the tradition there is also an industry of hunting with horses and the dogs so a significant number of people rely on this. People are also, I think nostalgic and a bit overly romantic and want to keep the tradition alive or they are silly snobs who want to appear posh. The cull argument is also contradicted by the assertion that not that many foxes are killed. Yes lots of awful animal abuse goes on but none is quite so unpalatable as the pageantry and enjoymnet of the fox hunt. All in all support for it is waning and it will continue to dwindle as will other country pursuits. Oscars Wilde joked about the unspeakable in the pursuit of the uneatable and I have to agree. The alternative is the drag hunt but unfortunately people just want a kill.

Lessons because we have no need to eat meet. And then to kill more animals to protect them from hurting the animals we are going to kill is sickening!

RandyRudolf If foxes are a menace to farmers then if it is within the law for farmers to control it then they should do it efficiently, humanely and quietly, not by allowing an all singing and dancing horn blowing spectacle to prance across the land

Yes, it should be done humanely if and where possible, but what possible law requires it to be done quietly? Who are you to say what level of noise or quiet other people have on private land miles away from the nearest neighbours?

Shooting foxes is damned difficult and involves sitting up all night and losing animals or birds to a local fox population first. Hunting flushes out foxes from difficult terrain - that is why it is still permitted in Scotland, where hunting is far more popular than before the ban. In my view, that is a far more real difference between culling and hunting, not some overly agenda ridden one based on attempting to push your personal notions of controlling people's activities interladen with a guilt trip.

SleepOhHow I assure you nature has a rather good handle on this itself and doesn't need your help

Well about 2000 or more years ago, before humans eliminated much of the natural fox predators from this overcrowded land it did, but now foxes are at an unnaturally high level on the food chain due to human interference.

It really is remarkable, isn't it, when there are genuine cruelty or hideous animal welfare cases out there, the animal rights people are nowhere to be found. There have been a number of cases recently, perhaps due in part to the recession, where large numbers of horses and cattle have been starved, died and lain while their companions wandered around their carcasses. No animal rights people to be found, again more local cases, often involving smaller animals such as dogs and cats, no animal rights people to bang their drum when it could actually have been useful in preventing suffering. No animal rights people to speak out about live transportation of animals or halal slaughter. Nothing from them on our massive local deer culls, which could have been prevented by proper fencing instead. What about some fund raising for fencing off sensitive areas by the animal rights supporters? Not a chance.

Sadly, if we continue to pander to these types of people, who are more interested in controlling others than actual real live examples of animal welfare, we will breed more incompetent and accidentally cruel small animal and pet owners, who will see nothing wrong with keeping animals indoors all their natural lives, in tiny cages or getting a pet for Christmas and abandoning it in the countryside when they get fed up with it, because that's where "nature" is to be found.

Actually shooting foxes is quite easy. You set a snare and check it every day. When you find a fox in it, you shoot it. Snares are set with a catch so that the fox can't strangle itself to death.

It still seems cruel to me but it is efficient and practical. Not that I do it, obviously, I wouldn't know the first thing but it's quite common round here. Lots of pheasant shooting.

Apparently hunting has become more successful and popular than ever since the blood sport aspect was removed. So there can't be many hunt supporters opposing the ban. I'd like to see a poll of all hunt supporters. I bet it would be quite interesting.

Ripping live animals apart is a wonderful British tradition that should be preseved. Exactly what the fox thought who took our four ex battery rescue hens in broad daylight this afternoon.

There are plenty of people campaigning about the transportation of livestock and other issues. Perhaps if you were to familiarise yourself with the groups doing it you would see it for yourself. However reading your posts you actually sound quite ignorant to the amount of campaigning going on out there and sound intent on harping on solely about anti hunt people trying to control others. Have you always had these control issues?

I particularly salute the morons who laugh and joke about not stunning the animals in the abattoir and humiliating and beating them to death instead.

A wild animal at least has had a life. I don't really feel strongly either way but 6th form rants like the op make me more inclined to support it on principle. Grow up

Why do people keep bringing up other welfare issues as some kind of defence of fox hunting? This particular thread happens to be about fox hunting. That does not mean that people are ignoring other issues about cruelty and mistreatment.

Why would you support fox hunting on principle because someone hasn't mentioned mistreatment of animals in abattoirs? IMO that is much more immature (and illogical) than an emotive OP

It Just doesn't register that highly on my concerns for animal welfare, unlike abattoirs. They don't always catch it and it has a chance to escape if done properly. A shed raised pig has no such chance