Shoplifting..... So desperate at Christmas

[stubbs0412]

Not me btw
Whilst waiting in supermarket queue someone was escorted out by the police...."shoplifters" says the cashier. "Well, people are just so desperate this time of year aren't they?" Says the person in front of me. I could feel myself actually agreeing, is this u? R my morals slipping? I honestly don't think I would report someone I saw shoplifting food either.

This is from Daily Fail 2011

Top ten items shoplifted in the UK (copy and pasted)

Expensive cuts of meat
Expensive bottles of alcohol
Electric items including toothbrushes and DIY tools
Electronic gadgets such as video games, smartphones and laptops
Razor blades, particularly Gillette Mach 4
Axe brand deodorants and body washes
Designer clothing including Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger
Let's Rock Elmo toy
Perfumes including Chanel No. 5
Trainers by Nike and Addidas

Its not stuff for feeding your hungry kids

Who says those things are not sold to buy food? It's less risky to steal a few high value items and sell them for cash than to try to conceal a family sized box of weetabix, a packet of washing powder and a sack of potatoes down your boxers. And you can't shoplift the gas and electric necessary to cook the food and provide heat. Oh, and begging or 'gathering alms' is illegal, too.

I agree WomanScorned - begging is dangerous. Beggars are very often abused, both physically and emotionally. I've seen passers-by shout insults to beggars. There is no need but they feel they have to make their point that if the person is begging they must therefore be a scrounger/criminal.

So if that person shoplifts instead they are still a criminal/scrounger.

If they claim benefits they are also a criminal/scrounger.

It seems the poor can't win because no matter what they do, some sections of society will see them as a criminal/scrounger.

Stuff goes wrong you know? Recently both our cars broke down, one cannot be fixed so we ended up spending £1,500 on a second-hand car and a garage bill for the other one. We live out in the sticks and dh works 12 hour shifts and travels an hour to work so we needed both cars. Then the boiler packed in and that looks set to cost another £500. Luckily we have emergency funds to cover it but many people don't, they survive on a tight budget from week to week so when something goes wrong, there are no spare funds to cover it. This is what has made payday loans so popular, because on the short term they provide a solution but unfortunately it can take weeks/months/years to pay back because of the astronomical interest rates.

It seems rather trite for those who are actually comfortably off to say that if they had no money they would do x, y and z. Well when the entire budget has gone, when your benefits haven't come in because of a cock up (like what happened to Jack Monroe and which is very common), when the boiler has packed up then there is no money left for the weekly shop.

For many people it really is a question of feeding themselves or keeping themselves warm. Do you know what the figures are for cold-related deaths? 31,000 which is a 29% increase. With energy bills rising you can bet that figure will rise even more.

Do you think those people would have died of the cold if there was another way? The majority of those people would have been the elderly who have worked all their lives, paid their taxes and now don't have enough to live on. I can't think of a worst way to die than alone, in the cold and forgotten by an uncaring, selfish society who think they should wear more jumpers or beg for food.

Not one person on this thread has said that stealing is right.
Not one.
Yet those words have been put in our mouths by some posters who will grab any chance to try and discredit our argument.

These are facts. People die of the cold. Children suffer malnutrition. The figures are rising.

You might think this is just liberal leftie crap but I really don't know how you can argue against the figures, the statistics. They are shocking.

Stealing is wrong. So is leaving people to die of the cold. Messing up their benefits payments and leaving them without. Not paying farmers a fair price so that they too, are amongst those living in poverty. Exploiting workers. Not paying a living wage. Not paying taxes.

I can understand why some people are driven to steal.

I cannot understand why profit-driven companies cannot look after their workers better.
I cannot understand why they are allowed to get away with not paying taxes.
I cannot understand why people are left to die of the cold.

So beat me with your leftie stick all you want. I'd far rather be labelled a leftie than be ignorant of the plight of people in this society today.

Happy Christmas.

I never thought I was a 'leftie' but at heart I know I am. Thank you Cliff and Custardo for your posts all through this thread - and Custy for that last one.

The cliff & everyone else, thank you for your comments, thankfully not everyone jumps to the conclusion that stealing is a nice little earner, for some it really is survival. I know this as my mother did it regularly when I young as was swapping price tags on meat. I'm lucky to have not had to resort to it and my heart truly went out when a lady in the supermarket remarked "people are just so desperate at this time of year/christmas" (It was me who started this thread) simply because for some it is true. A fabulous friend of mine is volunteering her Christmas Day to help the Salvation Army, along with her two children 13&15. They are a fine example to all you people who think a) welfare is generous in this country b) stealing is for profit and c) live such comfortable lives and that Christmas is optional. Woe betide you if you ever suffer life on the breadline.

And cheese is the most shoplifted item in the world.

LyingWitch - I think you mean that at heart you are a decent, generous, understanding and sympathetic person who is capable of looking beyond the Daily Mail's narrow-minded perspective

It matters not which way your political spectrum points to.

Olidus yes very possible but I did check there and had paid on my card also kept receipt separate so they couldn't have been refunded the money, possible that the shop kept them, I suppose I'll never know.
As I've always been honest though it kind of knocked me sick that someone else wouldn't be, maybe their child needed clothes though or they needed money for food, either way I hope they went to a good home.

And straight out of the poor laws this month... up North we had some poor sod dragged through the papers. He'd been in prison for two weeks for stealing food. On release he had nowhere to live, his benefits withdrawn 'temporarily' because of his conviction, he spent three nights on the streets and then was arrested again for stealing a sandwich from Tesco. Into court, back into prison for two weeks.

How will it be different when he comes out? Shoplifting is not always some cosy little earner because REAL poverty can't possibly exist in this country.

The Salvation Army are compounding these problems by using workfare.

Just to clarify - supermarket bulk buying makes food cheaper.

in 3 1/2 years i have never arrested a single shoplifter who was stealing to feed their family. not a one.

its usually to feed a drug habit.
there are also organised gangs who go from town to town to shoplift.

the items most often taken where i work are meat, coffee, cheese, body sprays, perfume, booze, electrical items such as hair straigteners, all easy to sell on. Most SL target one particular thing - if they go for meat they clear the counter into bags then leg it.

its usually to flog cheaply.

This thread has inspired me to make a donation to the Salvation Army.

I am glad that carted her away desperate my foot

Christmas falls on the same date every year we all have a year to plan I buy all my gifts in the sales. I managed to get 6 rolls of wrapping paper last year for this year cost 90p

With careful planning Christmas can be done very very cheap if people wait until the day before Christmas Eve to sort out what they gonna do in terms of gifts then more fool them

And to be honest I would rather my children got nothing thank anything stolen

Add message | Report | Message poster AthelstaneTheUnreadyFucker Mon 23-Dec-13 12:31:21

And just think he he hadn't broken the law in the first place he wouldn't of put himself in that situation

Like others have said the stolen goods are 95% of the time to feed drug habits go to any back street put and you will find someone selling something knock off

Thank you VicarInaTutu for stating the facts regarding what is stolen and why - but of course you are a police officer and there are those on this posting that will not believe you because they know better. rewgardless of your occupation.

Hey!

allmy, the 'facts' you refer to extend as far, and no further, than vicar's personal experience in 3.5 years. But is also a 'fact' that someone was arrested who was not after drugs, cash, christmas presents or anything else - he simply hadn't eaten for three days. I believe Vicar absolutely. I also believe the judge's statement on this case as reported.

Sad, I don't know what caused him to commit his first offence - the report only said it was for stealing food because his benefits had been suspended, it didn't say why.

Why is it so hard to accept that there are genuine cases of poverty and distress out there?

I've never been arrested for shoplifting (only for begging, binning, trespassing, ie, trying to sleep somewhere), so I don't know whether shoplifters are obliged to say what they were planning to do with the stuff. I'm very surprised that not one claimed they needed food/cash for food or gas/electricity/nappies etc.

The fact is that many desperate people are stealing because they and their families are starving to death right here in the UK. That's according to official statistics from police forces around the country. Here are just a couple of reports but there are many others:

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Poverty-crime-food-theft-rise-say-Derbyshire/story-20065624-detail/story.html

www.mirror.co.uk/money/personal-finance/austerity-britain-starving-families-stealing-2296520

My DH works for a charity that distributes food for a food bank. They are allowed to give out three parcels every four months and each parcel is meant to last only two or three days. After that what on earth are these people meant to do? Where my husband works, which is in one of the most deprived areas of the UK, there is no soup kitchen, only the food bank. People are getting their benefits sanctioned for the most ridiculous of petty reasons. The bedroom tax means many are behind on their rents. They have NO MONEY even for the cheapest reduced items. Those who say there is a generous welfare state in this country have absolutely no clue what is actually going on and are living in cloud cuckoo land!!

Stealing is wrong so is a government allowing pole to starve to death in this country while the richest in this society take more and more for themselves and inequality grows. I know which I think is the greatest crime and I think anyone who would report someone for stealing food should take a long, hard look at themselves. If you would let a child starve over concern about Asia and Tescos profit margins then shame. And the fact that some shoplifters may be doing it to feed drug habits is a pathetic excuse.

On the political side, this government last week turned down EU funding for foodbanks and Ian Duncan Smith criticised the Trussel Trust for "scaremongering and political messaging by claiming use of food banks is linked to welfare reforms". How disgusting is it for this government to criticise one of the biggest charities there is for trying desperately to actually help the poor and hungry in this country. Of course the use of food banks is linked to welfare reform, how could it not be???

Of course let's completely ignore those other people who are relating their experiences as Vicarinatutu has done shall we?

AthelstaneTheUnreadyFucker stated that in her local paper a man was arrested and sent to jail for 2 weeks, he was released but given no benefits so he stole a sandwich from Tesco, got caught and was jailed for another 2 weeks.

Let's also ignore the Chie Constable of Lancashire who stated that the hungry are shoplifting to feed their families

Let's ignore those and other experiences detailed on here in favour of the ones which confirm your arguments shall we?

No one is saying that some shoplifters don't do it for profit. In fact we are ALL saying that stealing is wrong.

Our point - and I shall say this slowly - is that some people, as confirmed by the Metro article, are stealing for food and that these cases are on the increase.

Here's another article about increases in people stealing to eat

I respect the experiences of VicarInaTutu and others on here as much as they respect what we are saying.

People are stealing to feed their families - not all - but some are and these cases are on the increase.

But go ahead and tell us how they are ALL criminals and scumbags and scroungers and how they really don't need to celebrate Christmas or put the heating on and how, if you plan all year and nothing goes wrong that will take those funds from you, especially when living on a tight budget that doesn't include energy increases, you can afford Christmas. Because you know what? Most people can't even pay their gas bill let alone save up for sodding wrapping paper.

On the subject of whether to report food shoplifters I think this quote is very fitting: "I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt, or when the self becomes too much with you, apply the following test. Recall the face of the poorest and the weakest man whom you may have seen, and ask yourself, if the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him. Will he gain anything by it? Will it restore him to a control over his own life and destiny? In other words, will it lead to swaraj [freedom] for the hungry and spiritually starving millions? Then you will find your doubts and your self melt away" - Ghandi

Let me quote that Guardian article (yes, a left-wing newspaper, I'm sure the Daily Mail would have put a different slant on it)

"Charities and police say that as living costs rise and incomes shrink, "stealing to eat" is increasing and the shoplifter demographic is widening. Officers say food shoplifters can be mothers struggling to feed their children, or hungry pensioners. In many cases they have no criminal record. The rise is more marked in deprived areas."

"South Yorkshire chief superintendent Jason Harwin said: "There should be no excuse for committing a criminal offence. These examples, however highlight the desperation some individuals face, that they are turning to crime to support their family."

This is what many of us have been saying on this thread, that stealing is wrong but that we understand the desperation many feel.

"Ch Supt Chris Sykes told a conference: "It's our feeling that a significant proportion of that is people stealing for themselves rather than stealing to sell on a big joint of beef, for example. In the past, you had stealing to order but now people are stealing for their own use."

"In Glasgow officers reported a similar increase in "stealing to eat" crimes. "We had an old man who had taken three tins of salmon. He could not afford to feed himself," Ch Insp Ann Hughes said last year.

Those are two Chief Superintendents and one Chief Inspector. All are sending out the same message. Are you still going to deny there is a problem?

Pensioners turning to shoplifting in order to feed themselves - who here would have shopped that old man who stole three tins of salmon? Or would you have berated him for daring to choose salmon when there are Smart Price tins of spam he could have taken instead?

No matter what evidence we slap down before some people, there will still be the deniers and all I can say to you is that I sincerely hope that you do not face redundancy or job loss or illness. I hope that when things go wrong, you have the emergency funds to bail yourselves out. Because remember that shit happens in life sometimes. It can happen to the most organised family, to the most affulent because life doesn't discriminate when it deals out shit. And I hope that if you do ever find yourselves in desperate need, that you are helped and not judged. That you are moved by the kindness of human spirit and not abused.

And I truly hope that you rediscover the meaning of Christmas in your lives.

Gandhi or no Gandhi I don't how the country could work if the poorest in our society are given the green light that it is ok to steal.

Does tolerating stealing actually help the poorest in our society or does it just encourage 'professional' shoplifters?

I think it better to concerntrate on other fairer and more moral ways to help people in need. Volunteer work, making donations or political campaigning are all useful ways of helping people who are struggling. Encouraging people to steal is not.

Amen to that.

Stealing is wrong. Full stop.

Stealing meat, salmon, certain razor blades... no excuse AT ALL.

Listen to what Cliff is actually saying. Nobody here is saying it's ok to steal BUT, if the upholders of the law in this country are actually cognisant of the fact that we have vulnerable people in this country who cannot afford to feed themselves, then who is anybody to blether on endlessly about the rights and wrongs of stealing.

If you're interested in applying a 'sliding scale' or barometer, surely dying for lack of food is a much greater crime against the person than a crime against a supermarket?

It's the same argument against 'benefit cheats' isn't it? Better to have a benefits system that will catch all - even the 'cheats' rather than penalise those who need it most. I'd really love it if shoplifters' circumstances were checked because for every person stealing for no apparent reason, there is somebody else stealing food to survive.

This situation is bonkers. I'm vowing to try to help from this point forward.