To think the appalling nature of Ian Watkins' crimes and the involvement of the mothers isnt as uncommon as you might think?

[JonSnowKnowsNothing]

Sorry for a thread about a horrible topic, but it's been playing on my mind.
I met up with some friends after work recently and we were discussing the Watkins case for a while. We all work in similar fields (education, social work, etc) and all four of us have had previous experience of mothers willingly offering their children up for abuse.

As you can imagine, it was a pretty sombre discussion, but having thought about it for a while, that seems quite shocking that 4 people all have experience of this. I honestly wonder whether things like this happen a LOT more frequently than we realise.

It happens doesnt it?

Fred and Rose West as an example.

Both from extremely dysfunctional families where inter-family sex/incest was quite the norm.

Rose had a very odd relationship with her father- right up until his death. Fred was largely rumoured to have sex with his mother. He was also 'taught' how to have sex with the farm animals by his own father.

No surprise that they became sexual deviants themselves- all this behaviour going on under everyones nose.

Really? How many were truly 'acting alone', the operation Yewtree is revealing a lot of men who at first glance acted alone but actually many people had an idea that something was happening. I don't know. The question I was asking was whether it is as common for a woman to sexually abuse a child without a man being involved too as it is the other way round. I thought someone who works in a field with knowledge of this might know.

I think plenty of woman act alone but it doesnt get reported as woman are seen as caregivers not abusers.Whether you are a man or a woman a paedophile is still a paedophile.People have to get it out of their heads that all the woman who do this are being manipulated by a man.Its just not true.Woman are well able to do things on their own.

My mother sexually abused me as a child/ teen for years by exposing me to personal sex acts. I didn't remember until I had my own child ( who I would never harm!). I didn't really realise what she was doing at the time and then kind of blanked it as I got older- to the point that when I started to remember I thought I was an awful person who was making it up.

She was also physically and verbally abusive towards me. A very angry violent person, mainly within our four walls, but people knew she had a temper. She had no personal boundaries at all. She used to flirt with my male peers at school too, she gave me the creeps and still does so have had nc with her for some time. Her siblings know what she did but they have preferred to keep contact with her rather than me, but that's what families do so I've accepted it. I think they disbelieve me or have minimised it. Who knows.
My dad wasn't about and doesn't know. I've never confronted her about it- though did about the violence which she denied ever happened. The police were supportive after a few meetings with them recently but I'm too scared to take it forward.
I know this subject is triggering and disturbing but I had to post and say yes it does happen and thanks to those of you who believe this can happen, and without a man's involvement. thank you, this actually validates my experience a bit more because for so long I doubted myself as "women don't do these things". I think my extended family believe I've got a screw loose somewhere! And we were a normal run of the mill family too.

By the way I meant she deliberately exposed me to this, by design, time after time, it wasn't accidental.

itscurtains that's a very powerful and moving post. I hope you're happy, safe and able to enjoy life. You sound incredibly switched on.

sauce thank you. That's very kind of you. And I'm doing fine most of the time.

Those of you who experienced abuse - I am so terribly sorry and hugs to you. You are not alone. itscurtains - I think that if your mother's siblings had kept contact with you instead of your mother then they would have to face up to the fact that they'd known what was going on and didn't do enough to help you. Staying in contact with your mother helps them to believe that 'it wasn't that bad' and therefore they don't feel so bad about themselves. It's not you, it's them. I am very sorry, and I believe you, and you do not have any 'screws loose'. xxx

Those who say you don't know anyone, or that if you heard about it you'd do something… If you have an attitude that abuse is uncommon, that it only happens in a 'certain type of family' etc. then it's very unlikely that your friends will ever tell you what they've been through. Victims of abuse learn to be cautious about who they talk to.

Through a voluntary role I had a while back I listened to a lot of women who were going through difficult times in their lives. They all had some experience of either sexual abuse within their family, or rape or assault at some point - that wasn't the reason they were talking to me, but it was so common. In the cases of sexual abuse one of the trickiest things to come to terms with was if they were abused by a woman or if their mothers must have known, or could have known if they'd chosen to see it, and didn't protect them. They just found it so hard to accept, it's not part of society's 'script', and my heart broke for them.

I don't like the hint or statement from people that abuse like this just happens in 'estates' or where there is poverty. Yes, it might happen there with some families, but also it happens in middle-class and upper class homes too.

Abusers are abusers regardless of class, race or religion, and their victims also span the range of 'types'.

It is truly difficult to expose abusers because of the confusion the abusers create.
Making you think you have a " screw loose ", and therefore minimising your voice is part of the abuse.
Children who are abused are routinely scapegoated within the family by the abuser this allows the abuser total control.

Most middle & upper class people go undetected for much longer than most.
They usually are very good at keeping up appearances and aware of how to play the system. They can be very well educated- this allows them a further element of protection and I have witnessed professionals intimidated by the superiority of some.

Make no mistake about it. Not just men abuse. Women do it to, without bring lead or made to but because they are predators just like men can be.

Much love to all of you who have shared your experiences
We should all hug our children a little closer tonight and spare a thought for others.

I completely agree with Roar.

All these suggestions that this stuff exists amidst some murky underclass is really off.
It's just another distancing technique and it suck because it adds another layer of shame upon the victims.

Abuse happens in all social groups.

My mother done this to me and my sis. She knew what he was doing but done nothing. Apparently she needed his money:(
When I eventually reported him she lied for him. And so did my sis :(
I speak to none of them.

I've known two people who were abused in childhood. One of my age group, one older. One was by a care giver, one was in the family, where abuse by the father was tolerated by the mother. I don't know the level of abuse in the relationship between the mother and father. It was in an ear of it being totally hushed up.
Both were from decent backgrounds.

I know of a couple more cases from paid and voluntary work, and I'd be a fool if I thought that there weren't more that I was unaware of.

The background issue. It is probably easier to get away with it in an educated background. Because abuse can breed future abusers, and the abused are more likely to have MH, education and addiction problems that will over time create a social imbalance towards people in poverty, the poverty being created by the abuse. People who have more social resources of eductation, mobility, councelling may have better odds on breaking the cycle.

[WARNING FROM MNHQ: the following link - which is a transcript of the judge's sentencing remarks in the Watkins trial - contains very upsetting, graphic descriptions of child sexual abuse.]

www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-watkins-and-others.pdf

Horrible to read.......

Warning

I have read this, if anyone here really believes crimes like this are common, then I fear for society

It also happens when one social group has official access to another social group, but I know for a fact that some of them take their nasty habits into their own families too.
Some mothers actively offer their children up, but a mother caught on the wrong side of the law may not be the instigator even if they’ve ‘allowed’ it.

uptheanty Exactly. My mother made me out to be bad and really made me a scapegoat within the wider family from my late teen, turning my siblings against me who still don't speak to me- I don't know if they went through what I did- but my mother has a very very close rel with one of them as if she lives through them.

Its a power thing, I was scapegoated prob so I would look mad/ malicious if I revealed the truth. She even encouraged me to move hundreds of miles from home all with seemingly innocent intentions- it took til my late 20's to work out why.
By the way, I'm a "professional" high achieving person with no history of "bad" behaviour at all! Also I remember a counsellor telling me that approx 1 either 10 or 12 girls and slightly more for boys, (can't remember figure) are sexually abused, based on research/ stats) and almost always this is by someone know / related to them. Horrifying, though not nec on scale of IW.

You're not alone curtains and its not your fault, always carry that with you.

Oh and congratulations curtains you are in the minority, you must have worked very hard and been very determined to overcome your obstacles.

There has been lots of studies on resilience and how some people develop it and others don't. It isn't something they can quantify yet.

You should be VERY proud of yourself.

m.famousfix.com/p74997/ian-watkins/comments
This is bizarre. Reading this shows how these girls normalised the awful crimes. It's really depressing.