To think the appalling nature of Ian Watkins' crimes and the involvement of the mothers isnt as uncommon as you might think?

[JonSnowKnowsNothing]

Sorry for a thread about a horrible topic, but it's been playing on my mind.
I met up with some friends after work recently and we were discussing the Watkins case for a while. We all work in similar fields (education, social work, etc) and all four of us have had previous experience of mothers willingly offering their children up for abuse.

As you can imagine, it was a pretty sombre discussion, but having thought about it for a while, that seems quite shocking that 4 people all have experience of this. I honestly wonder whether things like this happen a LOT more frequently than we realise.

How do these people find eachother
Suppose its like everyhing else, 'birds of a feather flock together' really not hard after you think about it like that, infact quite easy.

wannabe yes agree. Of course there's the internet. Then perhaps a type like this makes an inappropriate comment and sees how the other person reacts. If it's with pure shock then maybe they excuse it as a joke/they were drunk.

If the other person appears interested or not shocked then it could progress.. Iycwim.

I think the OP is right, and it breaks my heart.

When I was a student nurse I had a placement with the health visitors in a clinic on a very deprived housing estate. Vulnerable young mothers had been deliberately targeted on the estate, drug addicts, alcoholics etc.At least four women had been actively encouraged to 'rent' out their young children for abuse. In turn they received drugs (heroin/crack etc) alcohol, money, electrical goods, clothes, food etc etc. It's far more common than you would even dare to imagine.

I used to work in the prison system. A father was sent to prison for sexually abusing his own children.

His wife was told if she visited him in prison and took them with her they would be taken into care.

She refused to listen and I really felt for those kids

This was donkey's years ago to.

Is it common for a woman to sexually abuse a child on their own or is there usually a man involved?

Re the point that it's usually assumed that all mothers are nurturing, etc, I agree -it's certainly borne out by sentencing and rhetoric in trials against women offenders, particularly in relation to crimes against children. It's well documented that women are often seen as 'mad' (less criminal capacity, more mentally unstability) as opposed to men who are more often viewed as 'bad' (being morally and criminally culpable). Women have historically received harsher sentences for abuse/crimes against children because their participation is seen as particularly abhorrent. (Elaine Showalter's book 'The madwomen in the attic' discusses this.) Myra Hindley was never seen as suitable/fit for release, despite serving the sentence recommended by the Home Secretary. I know they are different crimes, but she was (allegedly) under Bradey's influence, so quite similar to the women in IW, although I appreciate they were not her children.

I am not sure about the poster who says it's an 'estate' related crime. It would be foolish to believe that sexual abuse of children doesn't happen in higher income/higher social classes because it certainly does happen. (Owen Jones writes interestingly about media portrayal of crime among poor white working classes in 'Chavs'.)

And it's probably not new either; I bet there are recorded instances in Victorian Britain.

None of this excuses what happened in the IW case.

The length of his sentence surprised me, and I suspect this is a by-product of the Operation Yewtree investigations. Although he certainly deserves (inho) a very long sentence (especially as the grapevine says he's already asking when family visiting days are, but I am repeating redtop gossip), I wonder how long his sentence would have been had this come to trial three years ago? I remember that dreadful case recently where a 13 year old child was described by the prosecuting QC, and the comments repeated by the judge in the summing up, as 'predatory,' while the offender got a short sentence.

(Sorry, the defending QC.) And that should say instability.

I think it is precisely because people seem to see women as more likely to be victims that they are able to get away with abusing their children than men. You only have to look at the suspicion that people apply to e.g. male nursery workers/nannies/childminders vs female ones to know that it is almost seen as an automatic assumption that women don’t abuse children whereas men are more likely to be viewed with suspicion.

Even on this thread there are comments which essentially excuse the women’s behaviour “oh many are vulnerable/coerced/deliberately saught out by these men yada yada yada.” No. A woman who abuses her/other people’s children is no more vulnerable than a man who does the same. We need to step away from this notion that men who abuse are evil bastards but women who abuse are coerced victims – they’re not.

I don’t actually care how “vulnerable” someone is. It doesn’t give justification to abuse children. Many many people are abused and don’t go on to abuse others.

We need to stop thinking of women as victims in this regard and treat them in the same way the male abusers are regarded, as the vile scum they are. I hope the two mothers in this case and any others wrot in hell.

It's uncommon still in that most people will never experience something like this.

However, mothers allowing or colluding in the abuse of their children is not a staggeringly rare event. This case seems shocking as Watkins is famous, and his power seems obvious, but there are plenty of ordinary men who might have a position of power and influence in their own small family/circle.

I know someone who was abused by their mother. There was abuse from both sides but this particular abuse was specific to the mother - for her own gratification iyswim. I cannot go into any more detail than that, but suffice to say it had nothing to do with coercion/vulnerability. No legal action was ever taken fwiw because the children were too young to testify, and as adults have saught to move on.

But the bitch better hope she never crosses my path.

I was a child protection social worker, and would fairly regularly be in contact with women who would have men in their lives who supplied them with drugs, drink, affection and they would offer up their kids in return.
I don't often talk to people about these things, its like I don't want to let people become aware of the really horrible side of humanity.There are some truly depraved people out there.

I think the public like to believe that women are above this kind of thing, but women have darker hearts than most people would believe

I think theres too many bleeding heart liberals,that dont realise woman can do those things.They gave that man their most precious gifts and they wouldnt have done that if they were not that way inclined themselves

As a child, my DM was always very insistent that strangers were just as likely to be women. Her df was a policeman and had come across some nasty cases in his time and she made us very aware that we should not just automatically trust a woman.

Its such a horrible subject, I can't understand how a mother could offer her own child to be abused it goes against everything maternal and is just awful

not in our village attitudes like this allow abuse to happened unchallenged

Well if I ever DO hear of this happening in our village I can assure you it will not remain unchallenged thebody !!

I work in the care sector and unfortunately women abusing children is not as uncommon as I once would have thought

Hedgehog i cant understand it either. I only managed to het to page 3 of the judge's summing up and couldnt say anything other than "but that's your child! YOUR child!" I just cannot even begin to understand how a parent can get to a place in their head where that happens.

Well you only have to look on the Relationships board on here to hear about the many "toxic mothers" and those are probably the relatively minor cases, where children aren't taken into care or totally traumatised, but just (just!) end up with lifelong issues in relation to self-esteem, confidence, mental health, eating disorders, disordered relationship templates, etc.

YANBU OP, it's far more common than many people want to believe, both the abuse of young children, and abuse by women

berry but if your attitude is it can't happen here then who will believe/report it?

Its a bit of lazy attitude really and blinkered.

wannabe totally totally agree with all your posts. No excuse for abuse, None.

I also think it's more common than we think.
I know women who will have a man, any man as they can't bear to be alone.
I'm not saying they're abusive, but I believe some women will turn a blind eye as long as they're in a relationship, put their children second, and that they enable their partners to abuse.

I believe women are capable of terrible abuse and vi

Sorry - my phone and fat fingers ...

Women, like men, are capable of violence and their victims are those more vulnerable than them. If they are at risk of violence themselves then they will use what currency they have to shift the attention elsewhere. It's complex but we mustn't assume gender automatically excludes anyone from a behaviour type.

I've met horrible men and women. You'd hope the instinct is there to protect your own child but clearly not everyone is nurturing.