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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think the appalling nature of Ian Watkins' crimes and the involvement of the mothers isnt as uncommon as you might think?

119 replies

JonSnowKnowsNothing · 19/12/2013 17:54

Sorry for a thread about a horrible topic, but it's been playing on my mind.
I met up with some friends after work recently and we were discussing the Watkins case for a while. We all work in similar fields (education, social work, etc) and all four of us have had previous experience of mothers willingly offering their children up for abuse.

As you can imagine, it was a pretty sombre discussion, but having thought about it for a while, that seems quite shocking that 4 people all have experience of this. I honestly wonder whether things like this happen a LOT more frequently than we realise.

OP posts:
BuffyxSummers · 19/12/2013 18:24

I don't think it is uncommon either :( we had a child protection talk at university from a social worker and she gave some examples of stuff they see a lot of in our city and mothers selling sex with their children or trading sex with their children for drugs isn't rare at all. It's so sad. And it's not helpful at all to say it doesn't happen where you live. You have no clue what is going on behind closed doors. It's that kind of view (this is a good area! but they are doctors!) that stops abuse being reported.

thebody · 19/12/2013 18:25

Pure evil, no coercion, no influence, no excuse.

Vile vile vile.

Methe · 19/12/2013 18:26

I know a person who was abused by his auntie as a young child. He told me once, when very drunk. I was horrified! I just didn't think that could happen.

He was an alcoholic, it seriously tainted his life. People can be vile.

Gunznroses · 19/12/2013 18:27

Alisvolat if it was fairly obvious to me I wouldn't be asking. Its too much of a depraved subject for me to just think, 'yes that's what she meant' which is why I asked for clarification. I've never heard of it happening until some recent cases in the news nor ever met or heard anyone discussing it. There are obviously some very depraved people out there.

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 19/12/2013 18:27

It makes you wonder - I've heard lots of stories about abuse in the 60s and 70s by neighbours or older family friends who were a "bit odd" and the accepted solution in those days was to move away or otherwise cover it up and pretend it didn't happen.

I'm glad we are talking about these things now and we don't try to cover them up and we push for prosecution. But you wonder if the internet and the increased likelihood of parents to go to the police has resulted in more situations like this, where the victims are almost produced to order and groomed and the problem is much less "visible" because it is more often constrained to an extremely sick, damaged and dangerous kind of self-contained underworld.

I mean, neither is better, and of course I'm speculating hugely, but I think that we do need to open our eyes as a society to the fact that this exists and not pretend it doesn't or that it's terribly rare because I don't think it is as rare as we would like to believe.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 19/12/2013 18:28

I disagree with the term 'evil' being given to these people. It makes it sound like they arent humans acting but some force out of their control.

The case i know of, the mother 'traded' her son and daughter for alcohol.

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 19/12/2013 18:29

Xposted loads there - Tailtwister :( Perhaps not a lot has changed, then.

FreudiansSlipper · 19/12/2013 18:29

children being offered to an abuser to abuse well this is an unusual case due to him being famous

mothers getting involved with abusive men (often chosen for various reasons many vulnerable themselves) then being in denial not so much so

BohemianGirl · 19/12/2013 18:31

OP I have to agree with you - Tia Sharp was an example - Stuart Hazel was in a sexual relationship with the mother, then the grandmother, then kidnapped and murdered Tia. Utter estate mentality. It happens. I work in social care - its prevalent. People pretend it isnt common. But you now have three if not four generations, where there is no stable male figure.

My ex husband was a victim of a incestuous family upbringing - his father did time for sexual relations with his two elder daughters, he used to rent his wife out. I have no idea why I married this man. Pity I think. He was a nasty bastard, just like his father. Fortunately I didnt breed with him. EX H is on wife no 4 now, massive DV issues

paulapantsdown · 19/12/2013 18:35

I have a close friend who was raised in poverty in Ireland in the 1950's, one of five children and no father around. Her mother accepted food and money from a local man who would choose which child to take payment for his favours. Sometimes he raped the mother, but she also had a rota for the children. She said later that it was either that or starve, which was a distinct possibility in the remote west of Ireland at the time.

thebody · 19/12/2013 18:35

People can do evil things and can be evil. Trading your children for alcohol is evil.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 19/12/2013 18:41

I dont wish to hijack so wont go on about the evil thing but i disagree.

FreudiansSlipper · 19/12/2013 18:44

does this not take away the blame from the abuser

do you not think abusers pick out certain people (usually women)

where are the other members of family while this is all going on

and what about the other issues, addiction, poverty, no support from ex partners or family, mh issues can all make people more vulnerable to those that seek them out

thebody · 19/12/2013 18:46

People can do evil things and can be evil. Trading your children for alcohol is evil.

GimmeDaBoobehz · 19/12/2013 18:47

Truly vile that anyone could do this to someone.

I haven't heard about this happening where I have lived but then I wouldn't know what was behind closed doors and dread to think what happens to poor children every day, it just really makes me want to cry and scream at the same time.

IW is a vile man and I only wish very bad things happen to him and I'm not ashamed of saying that.

thebody · 19/12/2013 18:48

Sorry posted twice. Agree sillyBilly it's not the point of the discussion.

Gunznroses · 19/12/2013 18:53

Freudian - i think the blamed is shared between both! Lets not take the blame away from these mothers either. Probably both the abuser and the mother have some terrible baggage they're equally carrying wether its an addiction or other. As far as the child is concerned both are participants in its suffering.

Original poster
JonSnowKnowsNothing · 19/12/2013 18:55

Thank you all the people who have shared - all of your posts are eye opening.

I think HEC made an interesting point about women being seen as automatically nurturing, with instincts to protect the young. I also agree that many of the women who either abuse or offer their children up for abuse are often vulnerable themselves - of very low IQ, for example, or previous abuse victims.

Does not excuse their part in things, however.

OP posts:
uptheanty · 19/12/2013 18:57

The two mothers sentenced today alongside IW were not just offering up their babies. They were actively involved in the abuse and did assault their children.

Unfortunately I read the court papers, I truly wish I hadn't.

Vulnerable woman/mothers sought by predators in order to abuse them & their children is a separate issue.

FreudiansSlipper · 19/12/2013 18:58

i am not talking specifically about IW case as it is unusual given that is was famous he had a following

many many abusers will pick out women and men who are vulnerable and usually are abusing them too though not always. it does not totally excuse a parent not protecting their child/children (and yes parents not just one parent) but there are reasons why stories are often similar

wannabedomesticgoddess · 19/12/2013 19:02

In one of the articles about this case a psychologist said that if these women didn't have the predisposition to commit such crimes then it would have been very unlikely that they would go that far just for him.

I often wonder how these people find each other though. I know that an ex of IW had gone to police with things he told her that she obviously thought were vile, but how do people even approach the subject. I guess in family situations a conversation doesn't need to happen. But in a recent case near me where a girl was raped by three men, it boggles my mind as to how three men work out they all want to do something like that.

Anyway, sorry, bit of a tangent there. I agree OP, its much more common than we think. A person I once knew had her children removed by SS. I of course only got her side, but I have my suspicions and I am glad those kids were taken. It would be very likely IMO that a case like this could have happened to them. :(

Gunznroses · 19/12/2013 19:02

Uptheanty i think you put it very well re: separation of vunerable women being sought out, although one could also argue that the male perpetrator might have been abused or was 'vunerable' as well? We need to accept as a society that just as there are evil men there are evil women.

Original poster
JonSnowKnowsNothing · 19/12/2013 19:05

I often wonder how these people find each other though
But when they do, these are the consequences. Your comment made me think of Fred and Rose West. Surely the likelihood of two such people meeting was insanely slim.

OP posts:
YoureBeingASillyBilly · 19/12/2013 19:11

Good question wannabe

I guess people like that must share other interests/personality traits that draw them together and then of course 'egg each other on' to do worse And worse things. Probably gaining confidence through having a partner tajt they wouldnt have as an individual?

NoArmaniNoPunani · 19/12/2013 19:17

A police officer friend who works in this area said to me that there are people who have kids to abuse them.

Going by the horrific details in the judge's summing up, it seems to be the case with the women involved with IW.

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