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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder why men are almost always the non-resident parent

507 replies

womblesofwestminster · 15/12/2013 19:57

Yes, I know I could win an award for most clueless person, but please humour me.

Why is it that when parents separate, it's almost always the mother that the children live with and who has to do the bulk of the mundane parts of the childcare? While daddy gets to pay a cash sum each week, pursue his own interests most of the time and then be Disney the rest of the time.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

OP posts:
Pan · 15/12/2013 22:02

Cold - I mean the OP invites every unpleasant generalisation about men and male NRPs in particular. I am a male NRP, and dd nor her mum would recognise any of these notions. On this site there are quite a few male NRPs and the indelicate wording of the OP presents as quite insulting, but provides a platform for the invectiveness we see on this thread.

KingRollo · 15/12/2013 22:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffyxSummers · 15/12/2013 22:05

Stupid twat hasn't changed his bank passwords Grin

JugglingUnwiselyWithBaubles · 15/12/2013 22:06

I think most people, including parents and/or courts realise children need more stability than 50/50 residency usually allows. Mum has usually been primary carer and usually she and children (and often ex partner) want to continue with this.

hiddenhome · 15/12/2013 22:09

It's okay Pan, it's AIBU, not Dadsnet Wink

womblesofwestminster · 15/12/2013 22:09

Pan why are you a NRP?

OP posts:
littleballerina · 15/12/2013 22:13

In our case it was simply that I could provide more (in every way). It was a mutual agreement that the children should live with me although a few months down the line he did suggest that it would be 'easier' for me if they lived with him.

As it turns out it has ended up being more like 50/50 rather than mostly with me and our relationship is better all round which is great for all involved. Obviously it's not always rosy but we make it work.

When I was in my early teens my parents separated and while my siblings lived with my mother I lived with my father.

I don't believe that anyone has a right to the children, unless their are special circumstances eg, alcoholic parent, but I do believe that what ever the decision it should be in the child's best interests.

WorraLiberty · 15/12/2013 22:18

It shouldn't have to be Dadsnet though should it?

Sweeping generalisations, sexism and stereotyping are wrong on any website.

The fact that this is Mumsnet makes no difference and those with different experiences (like Maleview) should receive the same level of courtesy as anyone else. Instead of "Oh, God, 'ere we go" and "I wonder if they have computer programmes to assist them".

No wonder this type of discussion is so often one sided, with only one side of the coin being discussed...because who wants to be treated like that for daring to post their different experience or POV?

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2013 22:18

wombles - that's a bit personal! I'm guessing it would be because it was deemed to be in the children's best interest(s).

Don't mean that in a horrible way, just pointing out that it's a question that a poster might not want to answer.

And I don't mean to infantilise anyone by answering for anyone, either ...

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 15/12/2013 22:19

Generally, you (meaning women, female dominated site, fair to assume) end up splitting up with someone who you've loved enough and thought special enough and good enough to have children with because either:

  1. He was making life more difficult by being a crappy father/selfish git in the first place and not pulling his weight.
  2. There was some kind of abuse ranging from being overly critical and/or a bit controlling to full on physical beatings.
  3. He had an affair.
  4. He has some kind of addiction e.g. alcohol, gambling, drugs, which are putting a lot of strain on the family.

In 1, if he didn't pull his weight before he's not likely to suddenly start when the relationship is over. So unlikely to take residency of children. In 2, you probably don't want the guy to raise the children anyway because abusive blokes generally aren't good fathers.

  1. is probably irrelevant but I suppose you could argue that he has already shown that he can quite happily compartmentalise the family so it's probable that he would prefer to compartmentalise the relationship with his DC and see them at weekends. 4 is fairly self evident that they would not be best placed to look after the DC (at least at the time of the split assuming that the nature/severity of the addiction is what caused the split)

The four can of course be reversed (although I think the selfish git/not pulling weight is heavily weighted towards men just because of society in general) and relationships can split up because of mutual agreement that both parties have grown apart, or that you weren't really suited anyway. But I think that the majority of women who split up from the father of their children would have done so for one of the four reasons above.

THEN consider that most couples do tend to set up in the SAHM/working dad thing, either literally as that, or with the woman working part time, or her job being more "disposable" than the man's, with her taking days off when the children are ill or to see Christmas plays or with her hours working around drop off and pick up times whereas the man's hours don't take that into account. The general assumption is that this will be the case, as well, so it takes a particular conscious thought/planning/discussion to go the opposite way or have a set up close to 50/50. Shared maternity/paternity leave has recently been introduced, but I doubt that many men have taken it up yet, because the expectation is still that a woman will go on maternity leave, not her partner.

SO, you have couples splitting up because of one of the four reasons I mentioned at the top. They're going to have residency awarded to the woman, mostly. Then you have couples splitting up because of mutual reasons, the woman's "fault" or some kind of combination. But these couples are still likely to have had skewed childcare responsibilities in the woman's direction, just because it's expected in our society. I bet it's a very tiny, perhaps even statistically insignificant number of couples who, before the maternity leave legal changes, sat down and discussed whether the man should give up his job after the woman's maternity leave ended and become a stay-at-home dad. Most people discuss when and whether the woman in a couple will go back to work - nobody asks about the dad, it's just assumed of course he will stay at work. So there's still a massive skew there, and it DOES make sense for the parent who's been doing most of the day to day care to keep residency.

I think the proportion of couples who decided, consciously or unconsciously, to have childcare be more equal or skewed in the man's direction AND happened to split up are probably pretty low. And that's why it looks as though women "always" get residency of the children.

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 15/12/2013 22:20

Wow, I posted that with my warning at a crappy time Grin

I am NOT meaning to make generalisations about "every" man or "every" NRP, not at all. My generalisations and assumptions are more about the relationship, reasons for break ups, distribution of childcare within, etc.

hiddenhome · 15/12/2013 22:21

It's AIBU WorraLiberty everyone cops in here. It's part of the charm so I'm told.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2013 22:22

Worra - Calm down. We're dicussing a statistical fact : that women tend to be the RP, and men the NRP.

So those "generalisation" may well have some structural foundation. And they may not. but unless they are permitted discussion, I guess no-one will ever find out.

And are women not allowed to swap their stories ... on mumsnet ... for fear of generalisations offending men, and some women?

I thank goodness that my sensibilities are not so easily offended that I can listen to stories beyond my immediate comfort zone. What a circumscribed life such delicate souls must experience.

yellowGiraffe8 · 15/12/2013 22:23

I still don't get why the OP seems to suggest day to day care of your dcs is a bad deal. If you didn't want day to day care why have children? I say that as a single parent who has residency, a job, no tax credits etc and minimal help from ex. I love my children and would go to the ends of the earth to keep residency. I fully support that dads should be involved, pay child support etc but it seems very sad that having residency could ever be seen as a negative thing.

Of course if mum doesn't want day to day care of the dcand dad does then dad should have it, but it's very sad if neither parent wants residency and residency of your children is seen as a bad thing?!

WorraLiberty · 15/12/2013 22:24

Bertie Grin

At least you started with 'generally'...rather than typing it like a statement of fact.

I recognise many men I know from the posts on this thread...but equally I know men for whom the shitty behaviour described is totally alien to them.

That's all I'm trying to get across here...just some fairness rather than so much projection.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2013 22:25

Make all the generalisations you like, Bertie. It is, frankly, how much of human communication is undertaken - and I would suggest it to be a necessary part of it.

Totally ludicrous that some people want to ban it in this particular instance.

I'm half of a mind to make it my hobby for the next 6 months to follow the "No Generalisations" posters on this thread across the boards, and post long reams, of post, after post, after post, of "No Generalising" every time they generalise on any other subject.

But that would be a level of tedium, madness, and vindictiveness I'm not capable of.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2013 22:27

"Many mn-ers have children ..."

What a fucking generalisation!!!

How fucking dare you!!!!

There are lots of posters on mn who DO NOT have children.

Angry
thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2013 22:29

"Many people in prison are criminals ..."

Outrageous. How can you possibly tar everyone with the same brush?!? Angry

WorraLiberty · 15/12/2013 22:29

thecatfromjapan I'm perfectly calm and chilling with my wine thank you Grin

But I will always point out that when people say "All men are like this" or "All women are like that"...it's wrong and stereotyping.

"All Mumsnetters are man haters" would equally be wrong even though it's been said on other forums in the past. It would be wrong not to pick someone up for posting that...even if that is their POV/opinion. Because "All Mumsnet" contains individual people.

needaholidaynow · 15/12/2013 22:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WorraLiberty · 15/12/2013 22:31

Oh...X posted.

I can see it's you who needs to chill with a wine thecat Grin Wine

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2013 22:35

Fair enough, Worra.

But I haven't seen any posts like that.

I thought PerfectStorm's post perfectly expressed what I think.

I worry about the generalisation thing, though. All too often it is used to censor women saying things that make men uncomfortable. And even women-who-love-men uncomfortable.

You know that phrase: "The plural of anecdote is not data?" Well, I think that is funny and true, but I think it is also true that there is a path from anecdote, to data: Not least in the acts of giving words and naming, and from there, the identification of areas that are ripe and meet for research - from which research, of course, data will come.

If the chatter which produces anecdote is silenced, with this castigation of generalisation, it effectively acts as deligitimisation of actual experience, before it can be transformed from "generalisation" to "data".

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 15/12/2013 22:35

It's just a legal term though, doesn't mean you have to go around wearing it like a badge of shame! He's their Dad, that's what's important and the only label that he really needs.

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 15/12/2013 22:37

Definitely thecatfromjapan.

In sociological research especially, qualitative data is considered very important because of the richness and the sheer number of connections you can make from it, especially if you collect enough.

Takes fucking AGES though and computers still can't really do it well enough so you get an element of human bias, but I loved studying it.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2013 22:37

Yes. I do need to chill about the "generalisation" thing.

It does upset me, though.

Sorry for being so tetchy (and rude).