to wonder why men are almost always the non-resident parent

[womblesofwestminster]

Yes, I know I could win an award for most clueless person, but please humour me.

Why is it that when parents separate, it's almost always the mother that the children live with and who has to do the bulk of the mundane parts of the childcare? While daddy gets to pay a cash sum each week, pursue his own interests most of the time and then be Disney the rest of the time.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

[MammaTJ]

Based on what was said upthread about if men want 50%, they should do 50% while in a relationship, then I would be lucky to even see my kids if me and DP split.

I bugger of to uni, while he takes care of the DC. I will do crazy shifts, while he takes care of the DC.

He even got called and had to leave work yesterday, because I was in uni, over 100 miles way. He had to find someone to take care of not so poorly DS today, so he could go to work.

I will be looking after not so poorly DS tomorrow though, as I have now broken up for Christmas.

I know a few single dads, including the taxi driver who brought me home today (not from 100 miles away, from town, after me catching a train and bus) and even he said 'What happens to your kids while you are at uni?', so even those bucking the trend are enmeshed in the sexism that exists.

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

And when money is as tight as it is in lone parent households (as all the usual stats thrown out about the high % of lone parent households being more likely to be living in poverty suggest), there are relatively few in the position to actually have those reasons and be able to stick to them, to refuse maintenance IMO.

All the hand wringing, so-called 'principled stands' being taken in your examples don't actually do anything to alleviate that problem, making it more likely IMO that there are relatively few who choose to take that route when it comes to CM. I currently receive £24.00 per month from my ex. And despite working, I need every penny of that measly amount.

[MumAlltheTime]

tension We must be reading different forums.

[AmberLeaf]

That's a very odd way of putting that Mumallthetime. A significant number of RPs haven't entered into an agreement with the NRP? Not 'the NRP isn't paying maintenance'?

It is bizarre, it is implying that it is the fault of RPs that those NRPs don't pay.

Heaven forbid the suggestion that some NRPs just don't want to pay and will do whatever they can to avoid it.

[OneMoreChap]

jeansthatfit

Just spotted
In most relationships, the mother takes on the majority of the caring/parental/main parent role from day one with maternity leave. That. pattern then persists, even when the children are older and the mother is working/working more.

Possibly but arguable. I note the most

Dads do not take on equal hands on parenting roles pre-separation. I wish they did.

Note the segue into "Dads". Not most. "Dads".

Everyday sexism.

If I said "Women don't go back to work after maternity leave" I'd get ripped a new one.

"Some women choose not to return to work after taking maternity leave".

[MumAlltheTime]

amber one does not preclude the other.

There are, as we have established, a proportion of NRP who do not pay, in some cases, despite an order or arrangement being in place.
There are also a proportion of NRP who pay despite there being no order or arrangement in place. And, there are other NRP who do not pay and the RP chooses not to put an arrangement or order in place (in some of those cases, the NRP lack of payment is directly related to the RP lack of engagement).

The fact that some NRP do not pay does not eliminate the fact that some RP refuse to enter into an agreement.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

The figures for those that do not have an order or agreement ( and I would take that to mean either a court order or a csa order its still possible to get both,there are many circumstances that the csa is not allowed to deal with but the courts still do) will also include

Those nrp's
who they cannot trace
who refuse to engage
Who job hop
Who claim to be out of work but not claiming any benefits
Pensioners
Those being investigated for fraud prior to compleated assessment.


And those pwc's who have ended up dropping a case after waiting years

As well as those who for what ever reason do not apply.

Many years ago when I was quite involved work wise with the dwp it was very apparent from deduction amounts that more claims involved only 1 mother,I wouldn't have a clue if that's the same these days, but if a parent with care is getting the minimum £5 then Its safe to say its only one pwc for that nrp as any more pwc's would result in the £5 being divided.


And the csa are shit at enforcement one of my clients has just had to hand her ex 60k as she sold her house, he owes her 35k in unpaid csa ordered maintenance they have never even been able to get so much as a tenner out of him not once in 17 years,she was not allowed to deduct what he owed her from what she paid him as the csa are apparently dealing with it but even after being told when he was being handed the cheque they still wouldn't chase it.

If I was a nrp I wouldn't have to be asked to pay it would be the first thing I would organise and I certainly wouldn't need a gov agency to tell me I had to because it would already be happening.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Mumallthetime.

A nrp can also make application to the csa to pay. It does not have to be the pwc who does.

If a nrp wants to pay and the rp is refusing to engage with them then they can apply,provide the info requested and obtain an order and even if the pwc refuses to engage with the csa if the nrp has given all the info they can still order and nrp can put a cheque through the door.

If the pwc does not engage with the csa then she would be subject to exactly the same sanctions as the nrp would.

[Cabrinha]

In my case, and that of 8 of the 9 divorced couples I know, the arrangement has been decided outside the courts and the mother is RP. In the 9/10 examples I know, including me, it is simply this: the mother wanted to be with the child more. That simple.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Should have added that I know they can do this because it happened with my ex, we had a private arrangement for school dinner payments to be met by him, he found out that because he receives an army pension he could get a £5 pw assessment so transferred the company I gave him to his gf then applied to the csa.

He then got his £5 pw assessment and paid that for 3 years before the csa agreed to take into account earned income ( he gave gf company then claimed he worked for her).

But bottom line is he applied I didn't, when I received the paperwork I said I was not interested in using the csa and was informed (did check with a solisiter and it is correct) that as he had applied I was legally obliged to comply with there requests.

[MumAlltheTime]

sock

If you were a NRP who was in conflict with your DCs Mum, would you put a cheque through the door (assuming you knew where they lived) without evidence you had done so?

Yes, NRP can pay the CSA directly in that situation, but unless the CSA have some way of contacting the RP, they can't and don't pay the monies to them. How many posts have you seen saying my ex doesn't know where I live and that's the way I want it to stay ?

The CSA have been known not to act on applications from the NRP at all - waiting instead for the RP to contact them. That's what they did when my ex contacted them.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Now your grasping at straws.

The pwc even if they are not the applicant could be subject to none compliance actions and the nrp could still pay csa direct.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

If that's the case he should have asked them to follow procedure

[MumAlltheTime]

Is that the same straw that has 62% of NRP don't pay CM written on it?

[AmberLeaf]

But 62% DON'T pay, you really can't argue with that figure [well you can, but it isn't logical]

The fact that some NRP do not pay does not eliminate the fact that some RP refuse to enter into an agreement

As sock says, the RP not engaging with the NRP doesn't stop the NRP from paying via CSA. I have a friend who was contacted out of the blue by the CSA about a long since disappeared ex/NRP, he had contacted the CSA and volunteered payment. She then received child support without having had any contact with him.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

And it does not matter if the nrp has no idea where the pwc is, under section 33 of the FLA they can apply for whats known as a seek and find order.

This means that anybody from family members to schools to gov agencies even DV intervention partnerships can be forced by law to disclose the address where they live.

You can even get a order to force the police to trace a mobile phone.

This is the form you use

www.thecustodyminefield.com/CourtForms/C4.pdf

And last time I applied for one the court fee was less than £100

[IneedAsockamnesty]

I have just been told the fee now is £215

(I normally get named in them as opposed to applying for them)

[yetanotheranyfucker]

amberleaf But 62% DON'T pay, you really can't argue with that figure [well you can, but it isn't logical]
No, you're wrong. You are not reading and taking in the maths or the logic.

Imagine you have 100 children from 60 different mothers. If you say 60% of the children are read to every night, you can't say 40% of the mothers don't read to their children. Do you not see that knowing the percentage of single parents receiving payments tells you absolutely nothing about the percentage of parents making payments because the number of NRPs will not the same as the number of RPs. My father had 3 children with 3 different women, so he would account for 3 RPs not getting paid but only be 1 NRP. You can't count him 3 times!

But anyway, going back to the actual figures.

The 38% is part of 55% who have agreements or orders, i.e. the majority of single parents with agreements and orders are receiving maintenance. The report clearly states that.

45% of single parents have no agreements and orders and the report doesn't say why that is, but it will include other parents who have died. Are you suggesting that dead people be considered non-paying NRPs? It will also include people like myself who don't want/need/ask for maintenance or all sorts of things.

[jeansthatfit]

OneMoreChap -

Yes, when I said 'dads don't do equal hands-on parenting', I meant most dads.

Have you read Gideon Burrows book 'Men Can Do It! The real reason dads don't do childcare.'

It's an eye opener. By a dad, so you might be less sensitive about reverse sexism knowing that the author is male. I'm sure he meant 'most dads', btw, that's pretty clear in the book.

[flippinada]

I've been lurking on this thread - I'm an RP with an NRP who is involved but pays minimal maintenance/. I've also been through the uniquely unpleasant experience of going through a residence 'battle' (apt name).

I can well believe the figures about non payment of maintenance. In my case, it's down to control and not want to give me any of 'his money', despite the fact the money is not for me but to help clothe, feed and care for our DC and while I appreciate that this is just my experience, there'll be others like him.

Niceguy commented above that men who behave like this need to be shamed and that this kind of behaviour is normalised because friends/famuily/colleagues collude with them. This is absolutely spot on. My ex's new partner, who was involved with him during the residence case went on to marry and have children with him - despite the court reports stating he was unfit to have full time care of his own DC with me.

[AmberLeaf]

45% of single parents have no agreements and orders and the report doesn't say why that is, but it will include other parents who have died. Are you suggesting that dead people be considered non-paying NRPs?

The study that gave the child support stats stated;

Base: All families with a child who has a living liable non-resident parent

So, no, it doesn't include other parents who have died.

[Greenkit]

When my husband and I split three years ago our children then DD13 and DS12 decided between them that DS would live with me and DD would live with dad. We both work full time.

As it was we patched things up and are still together.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

amber

Do gingerbread give any info about children per csa claim or household?

[AmberLeaf]

I was trying to find that out earlier Sock, then I saw the bit about living parents, came off the document and got sidetracked by RL!

I will have a dig through when I get a chance.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

I can remember a DV conference I went to awhile back touched on nrp's who will pay one mother but not another due to perceived bad behaviour (usually involving support)

Wish I could remember who the speaker was