To think capping child tax credits at two children will plunge more families into poverty

[SoonToBeSix]

Can't link but article is in the Daily Fail. A Tory mp has proposed capping child benefit and child tax credits at two children in order to win votes.
What happens to those children whose parents circumstances change ie redundancy or there is a contraception failure?
This government is taking welfare cuts too far while continuing to let the very rich avoid paying the correct taxes.

perplexedpirate... What exactly are you applauding?

This country is in a mess and, rightly or wrongly, the super-rich are able to avoid paying commensurate taxes. They still have to pay some just like the rest of us who work. It may be a drop in the ocean for them but that's how the system currently is. The fact remains, this country is in a financial mess and those who can't afford to have more children are paying savvy attention and not doing so.

It's risky; you and your DH work so you know this. It's easy for posters to jump on their biscuit tins and say, in pantomime villain voices... "So, only the rich can have children, eh?"... but children cost a lot of money. Who's going to pay for them? The parents!

I know you didn't raise this point but about the fathers who wander away from the children that they sire - any benefits they would have received should go directly to those children - I don't care about feckless adults who don't take responsibility. I'm guessing that feckless 'mothers' shouldn't be mentioned though so as anti-feminist as it is, let's put all the onus and responsibility on the men.

Make no mistake, this country is facing crisis, you only have to look at what your local authority cuts are going to be next year if you want a 'barometer' to give you an idea. Council tax will be going up though!

If you look at the figures showing the amounts of families who have two children and have never worked in their whole life you will find its miniscule.

Similarly, the number of families with more than 5 or 6 kids who claim full benefits is also miniscule.

So are we tarring everyone with the same brush? Is that a good way to be?

So everyone who earns less than £30k are lazy and lack ambition to earn more money? Yes? Or is it just a fact of life that someone needs to clean offices for NMW and that person has just as much right to have three kids as the office manager?

I don't think people should be able to have more children than they can afford, simply because the pot of money isn't bottomless and it isn't right that some people who genuinely can't afford to have more don't, whilst others think it's fine for the state to pay.

This isn't benefit bashing as it is right there is a safety net for people, as circumstances can change in the blink of an eye, but perhaps the irresponsible ones would have to think twice about choosing to have more children than they can afford to pay for.

Again I agree with Lying.

I can relate to the point about a society where only the wealthy can afford more than two children. My concern is however that at the moment that is on its head - very few families with two parents working can afford more than two children. At present, having more children is beneficial if you are wholly reliant on benefits.

Usual disclaimer - I don't think that's why people have them, but it doesn't change the fact that if I have three children, my salary won't increase. If someone reliant on benefits has a third child, theirs does.

Goerge Osborne intends to take the UK spending back to similar levels as those in 1949.

Someone on here said, I think on another thread, that there are two ways to cut the deficit, spend less or tax more.

So we are spending less. Yes? Then why are MPs getting a pay rise?

Perhaps there is a third way. Spend money on investments to make money.

Take money out of the economy through benefit cuts = businesses going under = job losses = more people claiming benefits. And repeat.

wannabed - i don't see why someone should have the right to have 3 kids, especially if they can't support them by themselves. in this crowded country 2 would seem more than adequate. higher paid workers cut their cloth according to their income, so why shouldn't lower paid?

I suggest if you need £17 to raise a child lest they starve then you cannot afford that child

I think you can be 'for' one thing and not others, though wanna

I am in favour of taxing the (very) rich more, it doesn't mean I think we should hurl money at anybody capable of reproducing.

poster stgeorgiaandthedragon

Agreed the only people who can currently afford as mNy children as they wish Re those on welfare and the very we'll off.

iPad,Sad?

Wannabe... the MPs pay raise should be attracting widespread condemnation. I don't know of ANYBODY (as I don't personally know any MPs) who thinks that they are in any way deserving of a payrise above what the national average is.

In fact, I think they should be subject to 'league tables' and KPIs like many of us are to determine how effective their work is.

What is actually being done about it though, other than lots of moaning on forums (yes, I know it should be 'fora')? Normally, one would write to their er... MP. I can't imagine that communication being passed where it needs to go.

Totally agree with President. Why do some people think that there is a totally bottomless pit of money which can be given out to families where there is no intention of anybody working? I would like to see more money given to older people who have contributed to 'the system' but that would be another thread.

FWIW we have two kids, we are on benifits atm, but I am retraining and dp is starting a business. It really gets my goat that a person I know also has two kids, has no intention of ever working again, will most likely have another as her youngest reaches school age, and what's worse, she doesn't even look after them herself, they are always with other people.

We would love another, but we can't afford it and probably won't be able to for the next 5 years atleast.

I just do not like the way this cap is heading. There is too much mud throwing by the tories, and no real discussion about the things that are not working. The millions of pounds being written off by DWP due to the failed rolling out of Universal Credit anyone?

Yet people with children (read women) are fair game.

wannabedomesticgoddess there is discussion however when any body try's to talk about benefits

You either get told

Your bashing

Or people who don't want to work don't exist

In order to shut down the conversation

It's not JUST women, wannabe but it's a question of where the money is to come from. What bit don't you understand? It's all very well to deplore the waste of money but other than hand-wringing, what does it achieve? There ISN'T the money available, the wasting of it on failed projects just makes the problem more acute, but the money wasn't really there in the first place, it's just been called in to 'prop up' as needed because the alternative is unthinkable. The country is in severe debt.

I would like to see more money given to older people who have contributed to 'the system' but that would be another thread.

I worked for 5 years before having my first. And when my youngest starts school I should have a degree. I will be 31. As the pension age is now 70, that's 39 more years I will be working and contributing.

But as I am 26, I am not older. So you would rather I didn't receive help. That's logical.

Agrees with sadoldbag yy to the attempts to shut down any conversation on this subject (that affects EVERYBODY).

If the idiots want to do this then they need to put more funding into domestic abuse services instead of cutting funding like they are doing now.
You only have to read the Relationship boards on this very site to find that there ARE abusive men out there who WILL can and DO bully their partner into having another child. Only a year ago there was a long running thread on there about this very situation THe OP in that case was asking about which contraception was easier to hide. She was too scared to have the implant in case he spotted it and she worried about hiding pills in case he found them.
If this is implemented it will harm the women and not the men. Because men like this are financially abusive too.

They want to implement things like this AND cut domestic abuse services. How the fuck is this not discriminatory against women

I agree with wannabe many people are working from 16-70 which is 54 full years so dont see the problem in those people getting help.

Lying.

I understand that there is money to fund the lowering of the higher tax rate from 50% to 45%. There is money to ringfence foreign aid. There is money to fund an 11% payrise for MPs.

Why can't you understand that while the country is in severe debt, there is money, the deficit is being used as a front for tory ideology, and that the numbers of these workshy useless feckers who sleep all day and breed all night, is tiny?

We all know what's wrong with the welfare situation

Farmers pay poles and others to pick there fields while the government pay our young people to sit at home.
why

People now feel more shame working in somewhere like mc Donald's than claiming.
why

And people who claim don't see how who they money they draw is directly taken from people who work but earn little more than they do on benefits
And cannot or will not see why there is resentment.

Things have to change sadly the many have spoiled it for the few and I do believe it's only a tiny tiny minority who can do any work not the vast amount who are claiming now.

Darkesteyes

I am fully in favour of this proposal, and am far from an idiot.

I (yet again) agree with Lying and others about the shutting down conversations.

I disagree it will harm women - we have a choice not extended to men about whether or not to continue with a pregnancy. I had a termination because of contraceptive failure and decided ultimately I could not afford to give that child a good life. It still upsets me when I think about it. But I had that choice and it was the right one. A man does not have that choice - once pregnancy occurs, it is up to the woman if she continues with it or not (and rightly so!)

We cannot keep paying for people to have more and more children because of some abusive men - the problem in that instance is the abusive man, not the benefits cap!

Needahoilday or course you shouldn't have a3rd child taken off you however you should not expect the tax payer to fund your choice