to be a bit depressed by friend's attitude to Santa?

[hestergraysgarden]

Friend popped in for a coffee after work. We were talking about Xmas shopping, and I mentioned that I'd bought one of those letter to Santa holders (the ones made of felt) for DS, who is too small to realise it is Christmas, but I wanted to write him a letter from Santa telling him all about who he is and what he does and the like. I thought it could be the start of a tradition for as long as he believes in Santa, and then I'll keep the letters and replies to give to him when he's old enough to get some sort of nostalgia pleasure out of them.

Okay, some people may find that vomit-inducing, which is totally fine, but I think it will be nice.

Friend looked a bit sneery at this and said that she didn't agree with lying to small children, and she won't be telling hers about Santa (and will correct them if they do start believing in him). She also expressed concern that Santa is a very disturbing concept (strange man coming down chimney) and that it is putting children at risk of succumbing to 'stranger danger'

AIBU to think that she is pissing in the mulled wine slightly? I felt a bit deflated after she'd gone and had to eat several mince pies

Please enlighten me of the other 'magical' bits of christmas,to me magic is about the imagination.

Baubles - I think lying and withholding the truth are totally different., I really do.

I am a teacher and quite happily tell pupils that I cannot tell them certain things or say "I cannot really answer that."

That is not lying!

Because of a conversation I had with a friend recently- she never did Santa because she's Christian, disagrees with the concept and 'never wanted to lie to her children'. I asked my 14yr old daughter what she thought of the 'lie'.

And she just looked puzzled, and said - but I was younger then. It's a nice story.

It's just a bit of fun and imagination. I understand there might be good personal reasons for not doing Santa- but I think some people may be being too strait laced and missing out on some fun.

Not entirely sure why lying appears to be the crime of the century. It is not something I encourage but I do tell small lies which don't harm anyone but are told for all the right reasons.

I love the magic of Christmas and for our house that includes the big FC.

I think the magical bits are alcohol and food (for the adults) and presents and sweets (for the kids). So not much magic there really

Limited - the beauty of a cloudless, starry night, the lights, Christmas markets, carols, snow (real or make believe!) days off work/school, presents, family, friends, mulled wine (for us, not DCs ) mad busy shops, my "Sunlight on Snow" Yankee candles, the smile that tugs on your lips as you remember previous Christmases ... ? Do you not find any of that magical (honest question)?

FloozeyLoozey, it's only my opinion, but I think being completely straight with a child who's been betrayed/abused (not saying that's what's happened to your DS, I don't know you) and who's been left feeling insecure/traumatised/distressed and needing to feel a stronger sense of trust in the people around them, is different (in peoples minds) to a random 'I don't believe in lying' scenario.

If that makes sense?

I can understand people not doing FC as it doesnt match the nativity story.Meh each to their own,I love the FC thing and I love seeing the excitement in kids faces about him,awww.

Kind of,i dont find that magic tbh,its "nice"I guess.Not magical.Theres also the point thing that most of the list doesnt happen every year or not at all where we are.I really have found christmas more exciting and magical now we have a ds at an age to understand FC.I like singing " jingle bells" and when " santa got stuck up the chimney"

But doesn't the gift-giving aspect of FC come from the story of Saint Nicholas? So hardly pagan, like the tree and the Yule log, etc, so I don't understand the objection on religious grounds.

Slightly off topic, but I'm reminded of the rainy weekend afternoon I spent scouring my children's bible for references to the Easter bunny, and trying to work out why the writers had not mentioned this vital component :)

I love Christmas. I know Santa isn't real obvs but can't actually remember when I discovered he wasn't! I still wake up b4 my dc(usually around 5!)

I love the whole thing of santa, my dcs have really got into it this year.

However we are Christian and my children know the true meaning of Christmas. They know it is a festival to celebrate the birth of Jesus and they know the nativity story etc.

Father Christmas is just a nice embellishment. Exp walked out on us and no longer see's the kids. Christmas can be difficult for them when they see all their friends doing things with their dads. So I make a massive deal out of it, we do loads of crafts and days out and its a really special time of year. It wont be long before they don't believe any more :(

Everyone has their own choices for the decisions. Its just about respecting everyone around you.

Katherine

I would withhold the truth if necessary but I would not lie

Dear, have you never been told, omission is often the greatest lie of all

My kids never believed Santa was real and I never encouraged them to believe. We still all played along with the game though. Much in the same way we would play any make up game. I don't believe it made Christmas any less magical for them.

It doesn't bother me if other people want their kids to believe in. Hi though. Although, I think it must be a bit confusing for older kids

No, nobody told her ZeVite

I was relieved when as a child I learned that Santa Claus was not real. I had figured out that the quality of Santa's gifts was directly proportionate to the relative prosperity of each child's family. This was reinforced by appeals at school and church for less fortunate children whom we should collect for so they would "have a Christmas." When I asked my mother about why Santa did not help the poor children, she told me the truth. I remember feeling only relief.

No need to feel depressed.

Your friend should not be making you feel bad about you wanting your child to believe in FC, as long as you will not make HER feel bad if she tells her child that FC is not real.

But, if we each have the freedom to tell our own child what we want, this means that young kids who have been told "FC is NOT real" will probably not be able to keep this info to themselves, even if specificaly asked to.

Muslim kids have EID, (in place of Christmas) when they get new clothes/go to see their relatives etc. They also get given (small amounts of) money by all their relatives & neighbours. They are just as excited & everyone has a good time, without the need for a FC equivalent in their celebrations.

So, I don't see how leaving FC out of Xmas would be so bad? (Kids would still get excited & look fwd to getting gifts, if their families want to give them gifts.)

Personally I don't like FC & really hope the tradition of 'believing' will fade out of use eventually, (like going to church every Sunday seems to dying out), as it's a story well past its "best before" date. And when it eventually falls from favour, the majority will be able to relax and not be worried about "spoiling" it for the minority who want to carry it on.

What makes me quite mad re FC myth is that the "FC supporters" are often quite intimidating, (making the rest of us nervous re saying the wrong thing & 'spoiling' the game), but they never seem to worry about 'spoiling' Christmas for the parents who do not want their kids to believe in FC. (To avoid lying it is quite stressful! And it is often assumed we will play the 'game' verbally without any warning.) No, they just think it is quite OK to expect us to do things their way & can be quite nasty if we (or our kids) let slip that FC is not real. (Quite selfish of them.)

There are some parallels with religion, or with telling kids silly fibs about where babies come from. Surely, we should each be free to be honest or not and to speak to our young children as we see fit? (And not be accused of "spoiling" anything?)

So live and let live eh? (But don't count on everyone joining in with/supporting your FC story!)

Of course you're free to choose whether to be honest or not Rice, but don't count on everyone agreeing with it.

Which you don't seem to tbf

It's a bit odd to read that you think FC Supporters should worry about their children 'spoiling' Christmas for the parents who've decided not to go along with it.

That part's not for parents (as such) it's for children, and it works by everyone singing from the same hymn sheet.

Both DH and I had the experience of figuring the truth out very young (both younger than 4) and then having to pretend we hadn't figured it out for years because we could tell our parents were heavily invested in the 'magic' of it all. So we never did Santa with our family. We would have played along if any of our DC's had picked it up elsewhere and really believed, but none did, they thought it was an ok story when they were very little but then just thought it was funny when they realized some adults were actually trying to tell them Santa was a real thing.

Still, some people think we've deprived them of something by not trying to force them to believe something they figured out on their own is untrue. MIL refuses to accept they don't believe even though all the DC's would be to old to believe now anyway, and she makes visits this time of year pretty unbearable for all of us. She can't see it's all about her trying to relive her own childhood through others, nothing to do with what the DC's actually enjoy.

Oh and as for not telling other kids, they attend schools with a wide mix of cultures, probably only 10-15% at most do Christmas and Santa, so it made no difference. Christmas and Santa don't get more than a passing mention at the schools and all the kids are aware everyone has different traditions this time of year and don't see their way as the only way, so interestingly it's actually less of an issue for the kids that believe than if they went to a school were 99% of pupils believed. Christmas and Santa just doesn't rate as a topic of discussion so there's far less opportunity for the truth to come out.

I believe in Santa. He brings me a gift every year

Religion is just as inconceivable to some people as Santa claus is.

When religious people dismiss the nice man giving presents to children as nonsense it always makes me laugh at their hypocrisy.

AgentZigzag ... I was just trying to present another (possibly heretical?) point of view & draw attention to that fact that the FC lot are are so terribly entitled, because they will happily accuse people (like me) of 'spoiling' the FC thing and of being mean/miserable, (if we accidentally say there's no FC, or if our kids tell other kids he's not real), while not caring at all that their desire, (to make their children believe/enjoy the FC myth), means we, (others), have to be careful what we say and drill our own kids accordingly ... just to keep the truth from their kids for as long as necessary.

I just wonder why WE should have to adapt OUR behaviour for THEM, as surely, if we have no wish to join the game, we should not have to?

In fact, I have always played along in the past, (when my kids were young/at school), just cos I knew the FC people would get pretty upset if I didnt. (And because I think that I am a nice person.) But I really resented having to do that, as I felt MY choice was limited by THEIRS. (Can you see/understand that?)

Why do the FC people think all the "moral right" is with them, & that I am the "baddy" if I want to do it my way?

Maybe I am just sad that I was forced (socially) to pretend something was true when I didn't want to? (Or risk the wrath of the school mums!)

Anyway, I look forward to a time when the FC-'refusniks' will be in the majority and we can "come out" as shouty FC non-believers, and that no-one will be able to call us "mean" anymore, cos the majority usually gets to be "right", don't they?!

I can see/understand what you're saying Rice, you obviously feel very strongly about it.

But I feel just as strongly that DD2 should be able to enjoy FC as I did, and it doesn't work the other way round if people don't play along with the innocent tradition.

I would get fucking shitty with anyone who thought they could take the choice I've made for her away from me.

Is this more about control for you? Being 'forced' to go along? Everyone's forced to do things they're not keen on all the whole day long, for lots of different reasons.

You've definitely split it into an us/them thing, which could easily come across as intimidating as you accuse FC Supporters of being.

"I would get fucking shitty with anyone who thought they could take the choice I've made for her away from me" .... er, this is exactly the sort of "FC enforcement" which makes me wonder what happened to freedom of choice. (And who the bad people are in this debate.)

Was that really necessary AgentZigzag, or were you joking?

I do feel quite strongly about FC being nonsense, & wanted to make my/another point of view known on here, (safely/anonymously), because in real life, people, (like you?), can get very emotional and nasty, making a proper discussion difficult.

FYI, I have absolutely no interest in spoiling anyone's fun. (As I already said, I think I am a nice person. And I hope you would think so too!)

I am just annoyed at the pressure from the FC brigade to keep the truth safe from their kids' ears at all costs. (Why should I have to worry?)

I haven't spoiled anyone's FC belief up till now, (as far as I know) & I have previously stated that I have played along in the past, to keep everyone happy. So why are you so threatening in your reply?

Where's MY freedom eh?

What if (for example) you believe in ghosts and I don't ... and I say so. Will you sort me out if I say anything (at all) with which you do not agree, or which you don't like?

It's just a principle that I want to establish here ... ie that I don't think I should have to pretend there's a FC, in front of other people's children who may be FC believers. (Why am I labelled "mean" for that?)

Why can't the onus (on keeping the myth going) be 100% upon those who want their kids to believe? You could tell them something like ... "only some people believe in FC" and then if someone (like me) tells them "hey, there's no FC you know", you can say "they are only saying there's no FC because ".

It's a simple solution, and it means that I don't have to worry about what I say, which seems a lot fairer than forcing me into 'playing' the "FC-is-real" game?

I didn't mean to sound threatening Rice I'm not aiming anything I say personally at you, only discussing it generally addressed to things you've brought up. Sorry if it reads as though I was.

But I am deadly serious about anyone who thought they could take away FC from DD2 before she was ready to give him up (I was actually thinking of head teachers announcing it to an assembly type of thing, I would be spitting feathers ).

I'm serious because it involves something I got so much out of as a child and want DD2 to have the chance of having too. I had an overly active imagination which was disturbing quite a lot of the time, but this was one situation where I could actively enjoy it.

Ghosts don't involve my small child, and I'm very protective and sentimental (for someone who has their emotions tightly under control) about FC (although I did lie to DD1 the other day and said I categorically believe ghosts don't exist because she'd read something and was worried about them, whereas I'm only 93.4% sure they don't exist).

I'd like to thank you on behalf of all us FC banner waving supporters for keeping the tradition going for our PFBs. I appreciate it