To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

But why would you want to insult people for holding a belief if it isnt breaking any laws?

For example, if i believe in fairies, why is it ok to mock me or insult me - why is it not sufficient to just disagree or say that you do not believe....rather than trying to convert me into becoming a non believer, or listing all that is bad about people who believe in fairies and generalising all people who believe in fairies as being xxx?

Very true crescent! Hence the madness of using a handful of examples to represent a worldwide religion.

Dione, I have negative feelings about religious belief. Therefore, if someone thought me capable of such beliefs, it is an insult.

Although I do have to say that my bil who is an Agnostic briefly toyed with the idea of becoming a vicar because of the vicarage that goes with the job. When he realised that it wasn't a 9-5 job he swiftly reconsidered.

Not to me, the one's I am aware of are very educated, intelligent, but also very caring types, very colourful, they all like a drink.....and they do believe in the role they play in the community.

I was aware of more of them at the training place in Oxford but about three in the actual community are doing a good job.

I suppose there is that aspect too TheArtic! Very tidy Vicarages, often beautiful....but you do not get to choose where you end up...thats the rub.

Same with star signs really too.

What is a respectable belief? Do you hold respectable beliefs hettie?

And evil people who are also religious are not evil because of their religion

Not true.

Evil people do evil things.
Good people do good things.
For good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

(Stephen Weinberg, paraphrased because I can't recall the exact quote).

How many people lie awake at night worrying about fundamental Jainism? Fundamental Buddhism?

None.

In order for fundamentalism to be a problem, the fundamentals of a particular religion have to be supportive of violence & murder. In the case of Christianity & Islam, they are.

Jainism is a good example of what a religion of peace actually looks like. Even a fundamentalist Jainist wouldn't harm anyone.

Yes, I do, defuse. My beliefs reflect reality & I make sure they do.

Well they are both largely based on fiction

Well if they like a drink that's ok with me. The God stuff is optional.

Are they CoE or Catholic?

Crescent, that argument doesn't work, because human history is bloodied with the hatred and innumerous crimes commited SOLELY in the name of religion (you also have to include cults of personality, where the state was functionally non-religious, such as Russia under Stalin); acts which only happened because of religious belief. None of those acts have been, or would be, carried out by Atheists in the name of non-belief.

However, everything good done in the name of religion could be done, and often is done, by people with zero religious belief, because goodness and morality have got zero to do with religion, they are innate in the majority of human beings.

Where do those negative feelings come from Oxford?

Wow, religion gets put into the same column as Stalinism? Well in that case you win. vase closed. goodnight!

You need to start clapping your hands, fairies are dying all over the place!

People aren't being blown up on a daily basis because of a belief in fairies. Fairy believers aren't sitting, by right, in our government simply because they believe in fairy. State schools do not seek to divide up children based on what fictitious fairy they believe in. Nigerian children are not being tortured because their parents believe in fairycraft.

If all these things were happening in the name of fairys, I'd take apart the belief and hope the world grows up.

I think oxford is being very positive, I am pleased people are able to be good without the need for devine intervention.

Hettie,

Neither christianity, nor islam condone violence....you can twist the words of the quran as much as you like.....if you construe the words to mean to condone violence, without looking at the whole picture, then you are no different to the supposed islamic extremist that you so despise.

are you being serious about the non-existence of extremist violent buddhist monks or are you being sarcastic? Please tell me it was sarcasm? Never heard of violent buddhist monks? Or is that your reality? There are people around the world dying...and worrying in the night about extremist buddhist monks. Once you have googled it, you will realise that Your beliefs are not reflecting reality - you havent made sure at all that they do - fact.

After reading both the bible and the qu'ran, I can honestly say they condone violence.

You can say words can be misconstrued, or blame translations all you like. But they both have examples of this.

It's no bloody wonder we get extremists.

Crescent

Buddhist fundamentalism is very rare - you know it, I know it. Islamic or Christian? Not rare in the slightest.

FFS - Pol Pot? Oh yeah - a free thinking atheist who targeted science, education & medicine, and who thought he was being guided by what "heaven" wanted him to do.

Pol Pot (and to save time) Stalin & Mao were not motivated by their atheism - they were motivated by a political ideology that had far more in common with religion than secularism.

You have to be a special kind of dim not to understand this. It's logic.

They do, defuse. You can twist it all you like and pretend they are not saying what they clearly are, but incite violence, murder & bloodshed they most certainly do.

To argue that good and brilliant things done in the name of religion are not done because of religion, but because of features innate in human nature I think you have to accept the reverse is also true. Cruelty and greed are also innate in human nature. Awful things done in the name of religion are not done because of religion. I think crescent is completely right.

People are capable of love and violence. The presence or absence of religion is immaterial.

What is necessary in all cases of genocide and oppression is the acceptance of other as lesser. This can be gender, religion, belief, colour, ethnicity, sexuality, ability.