To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

I dont get the whole "no war was started in the name of santa" thing. Lets say someone started a war in the name of santa....If you are saying that santa is imaginary then why would you blame santa for someone starting a war in his name. Same with religion...if you dont believe in god, then why blame god for someone else starting a war in god's name?

Ha ha, I meant that Santa is a stupid myth.

Anybags, your own child - your business. Other children - maybe just keep your powder dry? That would be my interpretation anyway

YY to fabulous's last post

Sorry x post monicalewinski

And I meant the post before last for fabulous but also yes to the correction post!!

AnyBags

Leaving FC out of this, I totally agree.

I tired of pandering to people with beliefs that we all have to respect and pander too, and yet people who do not believe are treated like heathens.

FabulousIdiot, it's not about getting joy from 'telling a child that Jesus is a stupid myth'. Telling a child the truth - that God does not exist - is not being some sort of malicious, hateful killjoy, devoid of tenderness or whatever. It's like explaining about tides, or the seasons or something else that's true. It's not cruel to explain to a child that oak trees grow from acorns, so why is it somehow mean to not lie to a child about the supernatural? I am talking about my own child, of course.

I would never purposefully choose to tell a child that God or Santa doesn't exist. But they kept pressing me, I would tell them that my personal belief is that God doesn't exist. It's insulting and demeaning and patronising to a child to not give them a truthful answer - it doesn't have to be someone telling them that they have to not believe in God, or are stupid to do so, that's horrible and completely different than just being honest about one's own personal beliefs on the matter.

And who is talking about going into a congregation and telling them they are wrong? Who would do that? No-one! That's a very silly argument

'if you dont believe in god, then why blame god for someone else starting a war in god's name?'

We're not blaming God (because he doesn't exist), we're blaming the people who believe in God.

To put it simply, belief in Santa doesn't cause wars, belief in God does. Therefore belief in Santa is less harmful than belief in God.

FWIW, I am completely atheist, my husband is 'not sure but playing it safe in case there is a god', oldest son (11) is aethiest, youngest son (8) believes in god and jesus and brings home the "Children's Illustrated Bible" from the school library to try and convince me they are 'real'.

I have no idea why he believes, obviously it's come from school but he's had the same upbringing and been to the same schools as his big brother - I don't tell him "it's not true, it's all a lie", I just tell him that I don't believe, and I try to explain why I don't in a nice age appropriate way - but I always finish by telling him that it doesn't matter what I believe or don't believe, it matters what he believes.

You consider being on a par to (for example), Issac Newton, Desmond Tutu, Roger Bacon and Mahatma Ghandi an insult Oxford?

How come?

x-post Anybags, that's pretty much how I deal with it with my kids (God).

Santa on the other hand - I ACTIVELY encourage the belief, because I fucking love it

Incidentally, I have told other people's children I don't believe in God, and they were actually pleased to hear that. When one of my grandparents died, my cousins kept going on about heaven and angels and stuff, and it was confusing and upsetting their children, and they kept asking me if I believed in all that, so I gently told them that I didn't, and what I thought happened to people who died (I said that their bodies go back into the earth to keep the circle of life going, and that they live forever in our memories), and they found this much more comforting and easy to understand. I did keep stressing that this was just my belief to them.

I know of quite a few Vicars who are highly educated, come from ex high powered backgrounds and they have admitted they do not actually believe in God.

but they understand the vital need of some people to believe and the comfort that religion offers them and they are quite happy to serve in this way!

Dione, you are clearly not grasping my point, or trying not to, so can we drop it? I do not give a shit a out what anyone else believes, or however many brilliant people believed or believe in something religious, I personally find it insulting that someone would think I could think religiously. I'm not on about the beliefs of any other person, living or dead!

And brilliant people who are also religious are not brilliant because of their religion. Even when they do brilliant things in the name of religion, it is not actually because of religion; religion is the most accessible or available framework through which to mould that brilliance. They would still do, or have done, brilliant things, perhaps even better things, had they been non-believers, or had there been no religion.

ZeVite, I know a vicar who is exactly like that.

How bizarre Zevite. How can you be a vicar if you don't believe in God. Their characters must be deeply flawed. If they want to help people surely they would have better off pursuing careers in counselling or something.

I readily admit that I am not understanding your point Oxford, but I am trying to, hence my questions.

I could understand it if you were saying that you are insulted by people who think you must believe. Or who think you are lesser because you don't. But that's not what you are saying.

Actually, belief in Father Christmas is identical to belief in a god.

Father Christmas and Yahweh (for example) come with the exact same lack of evidence demonstrating their existence & belief in both require a rejection of common sense & an unwillingness to face reality.

The only difference is that parents are happy for their children to eventually learn the truth with Santa, whereas the God myth is often peddled forever.

To a 5 year old: "Never mind how Santa delivers a billion presents in one night. He's super magic so just close your eyes and believe/have faith & see what lovely things he brings"

To a Christian child " Never mind that dead people can't walk around three days after their death or that a loving god wouldn't have created child cancer - just close your eyes and believe/have faith and you'll be rewarded in Heaven".

Whats the difference?

And all those people demanding "respect" for their beliefs? Get respectable beliefs first.

Bizarre indeed TheArtic but true. There are more of them, with I may add quite racey natures.....than you may ....think

What's the threshold of complexity past which believe in the physical reality of a myth is no longer idiotic?

I suppose the threshold is when some proportion of the population that have been heavily exposed to it take it seriously. Very few adults hold onto a belief in Santa Claus, many hold onto a belief in the worlds major religions. Our understanding of the world is mostly a cultural inheritance, that's true even when science is the foundation. (Not saying that science and religion are entirely equivalent, only that the reasons for believing usually owe more to indoctrination than independent reasoning.)

That's worrying ZeVite, it makes you wonder what their motivations are.

Maryz, what are you implying?