To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

People are capable of love and violence. The presence or absence of religion is immaterial

Not if the reason for the violence is their religion, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

[HettiePetal]

You missed my point defuse.

It's hard to make a direct link between Buddhism & violence because it's not fundamentally a violent philosophy. That people have done is without doubt, but there are usually clear cut political motivations running alongside that motivate their actions.

In the case of Islam, for example, the religion specifically tells adherents to kill apostates.

[HettiePetal]

The presence or absence of religion is immaterial

I wonder if the passengers on the aircraft that were flown into the twin towers who listened to their killers screaming "God is Great" thought that religion was "immaterial"?

[defuse]

Oh ok, so now to make your point, buddhist extremism, which didnt exist until 5 minutes ago in your reality has become from non - existent to rare - so that makes it ok.

I thought your views were respectable and based on reality. How dare you belittle death in the name of violent buddhist extremism and make a big deal of death in the name of muslim or christian extremism. Murder is murder....it is vile, no matter what the religion of the person. It does not make every buddhist, muslim or christian culpable - nor does it make the perpetrator immune from paying for the crime because he holds a certain ideology.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

No Baubles, religion can be used as an excuse, just like gender, colour, ethnicity etc. It is the lesser that is important.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

'Not if the reason for the violence is their religion, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise'

Religion isn't the fundamental reason for their violence though, that's just the framework it's hung on.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

Dione not if your religious text actively encourages violence - which some do.

In fact it's probably the violent ones who are actually following their religion moreso than the non. They're following it to the letter, rather than using interpretations.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

outraged Obviously people are the reason, but people have to be given further reasons for the violence. Something to incite it. Which some religion does.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

It gives them something to hang their violence on, but they're not violent because of their religion, (for that to make sense everyone in that religion would need to be violent).

If they weren't religious they'd be killing over race or eye colour or football teams or x-factor. Dione is right, it's the 'otheness' that matters, not the religion.

[defuse]

Seriously...you shouldnt be talking about non-existence of god and non-existence of extremist buddhist monks, then talking about reality, logic and others being dim hettie..... Your reality is flawed, your logic is questionable....and then to call others dim

[BananasForTed]

I really don't understand why people feel the need to be so rude to those who have a faith. I am literally lost for words at some of the comments on this thread. By all means debate if faith is a possibility/real/a big lie. It is interesting to hear differing opinions but I will never understand the down right nasty attitude some of you have just because other people choose to follow a religion.
Most people I know who have a faith get on with it privately. They do not impose their religion on others. They don't try to "recruit" for their faith. Saying religious scriptures are made up stories is a bit of a joke too. I have read very little of the quran so can not pass much comment on that, but the bible has a fair few historical events in it which we know happened. It has historical figures who we know existed. Ok those stories might be embellished to suit the religion but some of it must also be true.
The comments about respect are some of the ones I find hardest to swallow.....its just down right rude. I have a Muslim friend who is so disciplined in her prayer routine, fasting, doing good. I have a lot of respect for her. She has given up her life and devoted it to her faith. devoted it to helping others and having understanding for those less fortunate than her. She is an amazing woman and does so much good in a very deprived community.
Its a case of tolerance. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you have to insult others and belittle them. Stop for a moment and think before you speak! I'm sure this is half of what is wrong with the world these days. No one has respect for anyone. Freedom of speech means you can insult others and its ok and people wonder why there is so much segregation and hate between different communities!

Like I said, I'm all for debate and voicing opinions......but what has come across in this thread just seems like mockery to me. No one is forcing you to believe in it. No one is mocking you for not having a faith.

I'm so glad I'm not as closed minded as some of the posters on here. Its nothing to do with believing in something and everything to do with treating you fellow human being as an equal.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

All that is needed for violence to happen is the identification of other as lesser and threat.

It is that simple.

Baubles, what percentage of religious (whatever type) text centers on violence? How much centers on peace?

[HettiePetal]

The only people who should atone for the deaths of those people are the killers....and those who seek to emulate them, or cheer them on. A very small minority of Muslims worldwide.

Muslims, Christians and so on should not be expected to bear the responsibility for anyone's behaviour but their own. It's ignorant to blame all Muslims. They are no more to blame than a non-Muslim.

But we can blame Islam - the ideology that prompted these actions.

Buddhism, as an example, is fundamentally peaceful. Follow the teachings of the Buddha to the letter, and the very first rule to follow is "don't kill any living thing, for any reason".

That doesn't mean that other motivations & agendas can't creep in and motivate Buddhists to violent action. But fundamentally, Buddhism is peaceful.

The opposite is true of both Islam and Christianity. Follow the fundamentals of them to the letter, and death and destruction follows.

Of course, most Muslims do not follow the Koran to the letter - an acknowledgement that to do so would be horrific. That's why they don't - because they are decent people.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

have a Muslim friend who is so disciplined in her prayer routine, fasting, doing good. I have a lot of respect for her. She has given up her life and devoted it to her faith. devoted it to helping others and having understanding for those less fortunate than her. She is an amazing woman and does so much good in a very deprived community

You're defining her by a faith. You can have respect for the lovely woman she is without respecting her religion.

And it's nothing to do with being close minded. In fact I've read a lot about different religions - it doesn't mean I have to pander to them or pretend I like them.

Someone being religious to me, is just like them disliking my favourite tv show. I think they're wrong but it really doesn't affect me and I don't treat them any differently unless they get violent or pushy about it.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

Baubles, what percentage of religious (whatever type) text centers on violence? How much centers on peace?

One doesn't cancel out the other. It doesn't work in the real world why should it work in a religious text.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

Especially when the peace part is only relevant to those who are like you. Any diversity bears the brunt of violence.

[defuse]

More dim logic aka ignorance from you hettie. I am not going to engage with you anymore.....your views stink of islamophobia and thinly veiled bigotry. Most atheists would be horrified -and rightly so-if i was to generalise them all as holding the same vile views as you.

[HettiePetal]

sigh

Slowly, for the hard of thinking......

Buddhism is not fundamentally violent. It's not.

Does this mean some Buddhists can't be violent? Of course not.

I am talking about the ideologies that provoke action - the fundamentals that the ^fundamentalists" draw their oxygen from.

Whatever the motivations of violent Buddhists, it's not the fundamentals of Buddhist teaching, is it? Since THAT does not condone violence & pacifism is inherent.

crescent Atheism has no position on anything - it's a word we use to describe people who don't hold one particular belief. Nothing else.

People don't do anything based on something they don't believe in.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Hettie, I think perhaps you should look further into the history of Buddhism.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

Islamophobia is BS. You can be against a religion without being against the people that follow it.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

'One doesn't cancel out the other'

That's exactly what you're arguing though! That the violent messages cancel out the peaceful ones and therefore we can blame religion for violence, but not for anything good.

You can't have it both ways

Religion is responsible for both or neither.

Personally I believe it's is ultimately responsible for neither.