To think that belief in Father Christmas is not comparable to religious belief.

[Throughthelongnight]

Just that really. I have noticed that the expectation is that we all go along with the pretence of FC for the sake of parent's children's sensibility, but the same is not afforded where religious belief is concerned.

[bumperella]

Ultimately, we (the grown-ups) can prove Santa doesn't exist (simply by not buying pressies for our DC's). Substituting "Santa" for "God" in a theological presupposes the outcome (at best).

[friday16]

It is unacceptable for someone to hold the view that I'm stupid and lack skills of rationale because I have faith

There are people who purport to genuinely believe that the earth is flat. It's tempting to believe that it's a marvellously arch put-on job, but it's likely that least one of the people here actually do have a fully-formed belief system around a flat earth.

I'd say it's reasonable to assume that such people are either irrational or mentally ill, and I wouldn't (for example) want to try flying across the Pacific using their maps.

[DoYouLikeMyBaubles]

I respect a person, but I have no reason to respect their faith.

[TheArticFunky]

FabIdiot - Great name very apt.

Throughthelongnight - Acceptable to tell child that you don't believe in Santa and God.

Santa is harmless fun and I think its a shame if we turn a fairy tale into something more than it is. I loved the magic of believing in Santa and I know my children do too.

With God it's different I have never felt that I could tell my children that God existed I always said some people believe etc etc. Ds1 is 9 and veers between being Agnostic and Atheist and that's fine he has made his own mind up.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Equating belief in Santa to faith as an adult, the person doing so is infantalising the person of belief. So in that way it is disrespectful OP.

[nickeldonkeyonadustyroad]

I do think it's bad form to assume that because you go to church on christmas day that you must also believe that father christmas has been.
I started a thread on this yesterday in the christmas topic and no one got het up about it.

[Throughthelongnight]

ThefaboulousIdiot, that is the point, many parents seem to think that it is intrinsically wrong to even hint that FC is perhaps a myth, whilst not being prepared to go along with the Jesus myth...

[TheArticFunky]

I have an LLM so I guess that I have pretty good reasoning skills. Not everyone who has faith is the village simpleton.

As I already said its a personal thing and I wouldn't want to debate it. Science points towards the absence of God/afterlife. But on an individual level we can feel things very differently. I can't explain why I believe what I believe. I wasn't raised a Christian and I didn't have a mental breakdown.

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

What's the threshold of complexity past which believe in the physical reality of a myth is no longer idiotic?

friday16, I think I love you!

People believe they have experiences angels, communication with God, etc., but they are wrong. They have either had some sort of physical or neurological experience that they do not understand or have not had explained to them correctly, or they have suffered a mental health issue (ongoing or momentary).

I genuinely fail to see how comparing fairies to God is insulting. The existence of fairies would be actually more realistic, if someone was to take all the supernatural concepts and weigh up which was more likely to have any possible feasible scientific basis. Believing in BIG people woth wings - angels - is perfectly fine, but believing in tiny people with wings is bonkers, is it? Riiiiiiiight. And what is the reason why I shouldn't compare the two? Would the answer be: The Bible? Well, let me tell you, there's only one Bible, but there's loads of Flower Fairy books. Much less hate, misogyny, racism, homophobia, jingoism and bullshit in those too.

What IS insulting is that other people expect or presume that I, a grown person, could be capable of believing in an invisible, unprovable, magical presence that created all things in a tiny space of time and sort of floats above the sky, watching and controlling all things, living or not, all the time, simultaneously. It is demeaning that anyone could think me capable of such absolute nonsense. Religious people talk about their beliefs being insulted, yet care not a jot for insulting anyone with beliefs and knowledge based on proof, fact, and logic.

[friday16]

Ultimately, we (the grown-ups) can prove Santa doesn't exist (simply by not buying pressies for our DC's).

It's fairly easy to prove God doesn't exist, too. If your child shows the symptoms of childhood-onset Type 1 diabetes, don't go to the doctor, just pray a lot. See if your child lives or dies. Call us with the result.

This couple tried it:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23167489

It didn't seem to work.

Alternatively, if you think just leaving one child to die because an imaginary God isn't as effective as real insulin, you could go all scientific and shit, and repeat the experiment a couple of times.

This couple have killed two of their children: a eight month old who proved that death from dehydration because of D&V isn't treatable by prayer to an imaginary God, and nor can an imaginary God cure bacterial pneumonia in two year olds.

Personally, I think killing three children as experiments to see whether prayer works is a high price to pay. Christians, apparently, care rather less about their children than the rest of us, and are willing to give it a crack.

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

Dione - the act of believing in unprovable supernatural figures when one is an adult is what infantilises a person, not pointing that out. There is no more proof or logic to believing in Santa than there is believing in God.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Oxford are you saying that you are insulted by the existence of adults with faith?

[OutragedFromLeeds]

'So is it okay for me to tell a child I don't believe in Father Christmas?'

Yes, lots of kids Christmas films centre around the idea that grown-ups don't believe (Miracle on 34th Street, The Santa Clause, The Polar Express) so it's not something kids haven't been exposed to.

'And is it okay for me to tell a child that I don't believe in God?'

Yes

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

No, I am insulted by the idea that anyone would think I could believe in God, the supernatural, all that stuff. If other people are daft enough to fall for it, they can knock themselves out, so long as I'm not expected to join in their delusions.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

X-post Oxford.

[SoupDragon]

No wars have been started in the name of Santa. On the whole, I think I prefer him to religion.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

I struggle to respect decisions made as a result of faith.

I really struggle to respect anyone who wants to make decisions about other people's lives based on their religion.

[monicalewinski]

Throughthelongnight of course it's acceptable for you to tell a child that you don't believe in santa/god.

It's acceptable to tell them that if they ask you if you believe, it's not acceptable to just tell them without prompt though because that would be unnecessary and a bit mean.

It would not be acceptable for you to tell a child that santa/god is not real because it is not your place to tell them what they can or cannot believe in.

As someone said earlier on the thread "santa is not belief, it's a suspension of disbelief" and it's only young children; religion and other beliefs are a choice, made by an adult - therefore you cannot compare the two.

[cloggal]

I agree with OutragedfromLeeds. The question for me is more, when would a situation arise where you would NEED to share your opinions on either with someone else's child? How about just, ask your parents?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I know adults who believe. I know adults who do not believe. So I suppose anyone is capable of belief. I do not understand why you find that an insult.

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

I'd like a bit more explanation as to why I shouldn't tell my child that SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EXIST doesn't exist. That's telling him the truth, not telling him not to believe in something. Anyone can believe in anything, but it doesn't mean anyone else has to collude in that belief.

My mind is boggling as to the concept of it being right to lie to or delude my child!

[katese11]

Bull (proof conclusion of Dorothy Parker's adage that beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone) claims that God tells her to hate queers to the point of refusing to serve them in her business. Which part of her faith isn't worthy of mockery?

Errr, the bit where she is one person out of millions who share the same faith but most of us don't share her bigotry? It's always the extreme examples that get into the papers/mn threads but there are millions of Christians out there who are just normal kinda people - we just happen to believe in God. Comparing God to FC just doesn't really show much understanding of religion - it's not a "be good and you get x" deal. .. it's an ongoing, reciprocal relationship. Why would most people believe in a God that demanded to be worshipped but never gave anything back? The whole reason people have faith is because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that God has answered their prayers. It's a thorny and complex journey and involves a lot that we can't justify or explain but that's the basis of it. I'd you ever meet a Christian who claims they do understand it all, they are probably next in line for a daily mail expose ; )

[TheFabulousIdiot]

I think you're wrong. I thnk most parents just object to miserable killjoys intent on upsetting their kids because they are miserable fuckers or they object to miserable people using the myth of father Christmas to make sme ridiculous point about 'faith'. Neither of these things a nice person make. I think the whole idea of Jesus and god is utterly ridiculous, I think that religion has no place in schools but I wouldn't walk into a church and tell the congregation they are all stupid, even though I think their belief is. What joy would anyone really get from directly telling a kid that Jesus is a a stupid myth?

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

Dione, I don't know how to make my point simpler. To me, believing in anything religious is ridiculous, irrational, illogical, and a suspension of intelligence, so therefore someone thinking I could be like that is an insult.

[monicalewinski]

Oxford You can tell your child whatever you want, your child=your beliefs and values, therefore your business.

It's telling other people's children that isn't right IMO (the OP said can I tell "a" child, and I took that to mean a random child, not her own).