To be really sad and upset. RIP Nelson Mandela :-(

[LittlePeaPod]

I know I am not but wanted to share the sad news. Loss of a grat man and inspirational leader.

news.sky.com/story/1178430/nelson-mandela-dies-president-confirms

I am not south African, but I have lost friends to those from terrorist groups.

My friends did not support the regimes that the terrorists where fighting against, but according to Creighton they deserved to die because they have the wrong skin colour or political affiliations, or where in the wrong night clubs.

All because in creighton's eyes they couldn't possibly have been innocent.

if they supported the regime through disinterest what do you think I should think?

Boney sorry for the loss of your friends. Were they killed in South Africa, or in other conflicts?

To be fair to creighton, I don't think she is speaking about any other situation other than the evil of the apartheid regime in SA.

I'm interested through: would you say the same about those killed by the Resistance in cafes, bars etc? Killed by terrorists?

we are talking about SA

At the end of WW2 there were Israeli death squads that took people off the streets (dressed in their British uniforms to give it a tinge of authority) they took them to the woods and after a kangaroo court murdered them.

In South Africa the ANC pulled people from their homes and had a Kangaroo court and them set alight with flaming tyres around their necks (necklaces) A Winnie Mandela quote is "[W]ith our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country."

"I'm interested through: would you say the same about those killed by the Resistance in cafes, bars etc? Killed by terrorists?"

Would I say that innocents where killed by the resistance, yes I would.
I wouldn't say that your comparison is like for like.

i'm not south African, but i have lost friends to those from terrorist groups

Boney, it's very easy isin't it to declare after the event that your friends didn't support the regime, but what does that mean in reality??

Did they actively campaign against it?

The fact is, apartheid was able to not only survive, but in fact thrive, because at the very least, some white south africans stood by passively and allowed it to continue, and most in fact actively promoted and upheld it's practices.

how many Africans were killed by the white south African regime through direct or indirect violence? were their names listed anywhere or do black deaths at white hands not matter to you?

Boney the Israeli death squads you mention weren't actually part of WW2 - the incidents you're talking about came later (and there wasn't even an attempt at a kangaroo court, if it's the Netanya incident you are referring to). The Jewish population in Palestine were introduced to political violence by the British before the war, who trained up local Jews in squads commanded by British officers to engage in 'pre-emptive counter-terrorism' against Arabs during the 36-39 revolt. It's all far, far more complicated than you allow for.

If you are not capable of seeing the moral gradations inherent in political violence - for instance, the difference between the French resistance blowing up a Parisian cafe frequented by Nazi officers but also used by ordinary French people and, say, the Bali bomb, then your view of the world is far too monochrome, imo.

Chunderella

Would/Could that be taken to mean that those who supported the ANC shouldn't be linked or considered to have supported the part of the extremist ANC actions because they didn't stop it?

If so shouldn't the same rule be applied to the white South Africans that didn't support apartheid?

Or do we lump everybody in to the same box?

there are now few white south Africans who 'supported' apartheid, like there are few white americans who 'remember' segregation. it was probably all a fiction invented by the blacks with chips on their shoulders.

Whistleblower

They where there to support the anti-apartheid demonstrations.

Creighton

Ah yes the reversal, Of course those that died at the hands of the regime mean something to me, I haven't said that they haven't, I suspect that the deaths of those at the hands of the regime mean more to me than those innocents killed by the ANC.

JanineStHubbins

Sorry it should be "Israeli revenge squads" that were about after D-Day and towards the end of WW2.

"If you are not capable of seeing the moral gradations inherent in political violence"

I said that the situations where not comparable, not that I couldn't see the difference..

Creighton

Yes. people enjoy rewriting history, its something that should not be allowed to happen.

Chunderella

So are both to be considered culpable by their being passive?

Boney Were your friends killed in ANC bombings?

Yes.

Chunderella

(linking to earlier in the thread and another poster) Do you consider the children to have been passive and are they culpable for apartheid?

I had the pleasure of seeing a preview of a long walk to freedom last night,- the film about Mandela's life and struggle against arpartheid. It was truely moving. I'm actually surprised that the
ANC didn't turn to violence a lot sooner, considering how black south africans were treated by the white regime.