To Think My Ex's Alpha Church 'mates' Overstepped The Mark?

[absoluteidiot]

Here's the scenario. My ex convicted this summer, found guilty of harassing me. His two character witnesses (not allowed to take stand as he had a previous conviction for harassing another woman) were two very young looking 'men' from his church's Alpha Course.

The church were fully aware he was harassing me. He completed the Alpha course DURING the time he was harassing me so hasn't found god and been 'cured' since.

He was caught lying in court, where he pleaded Not Guilty. The two character witnesses heard all the proceedings which exposed ten years' worth of harassing women, and heard a District Judge pronounce him Guilty. They know what he did and that he lied in court, denying it.

Though found Guilty, at sentencing the Alpha males were allowed to be character witnesses which must have helped. He got a suspended sentence, and a leg tag, which was removed a few days ago. It had imposed a curfew on him, making it impossible for him to turn up here. Previously the judge had said it was at the severe end of harassment and the police had always felt so too. We were led to believe it would be a custodial sentence as it wasn't a first offence, and his first offence was also so bad he had a 5 mth sentence.

Now today, on FB, he has posted a picture of him, his vicar, the two character witness boys and their WAGs 'celebrating' (out for a meal in London, presumably celebrating removal of the leg tag).

Previously his Twitter Feed and FB has been full of supportive messages encouraging this woman harassing lunatic, from fellow Alpha course graduates.

Am I being unreasonable being incensed that these people are openly supporting a man who harassed women? And appear to be celebrating and congratulating him for getting away with it?

There's a lot of confusion about types of Christianity here:

"Alpha course is some evangelistic speaking in tongues woo"
No, it's non-denom and all sorts use it - there's even an RC version these days.

Evangelicals = woman hating: no, the major proponent this (and Alpha course) (within CofE) is HTB which is firm supporter of women ordination/bishops etc

"I don't think it is anti christian to say these people are massive dicks who seem to meddle in things they don't understand"
Agree - this specific group clearly are either massive dicks, or genuine believers inthe redemptive power of live who have been massively deluded. But that's this group - not all Christian groups.

You say "Vicar" so I assume you are talking about C of E.

You could write to the Bishop. Expressing concern that the Vicar has fallen under the spell of this man, two other church members have been in court and seen the truth, eg the lying what the police have said, detailing other cases of harrassment, put it as calmly as possible. State you think that the Bishop ought to be aware for safeguarding reasons and that you are worried for the wellbeing of the Vicar and 2 sidekicks. End with "of course I understand that this is your decision alone." Send recorded delivery.

Oh OP, I am so sorry for you that Justice has not been done. I’m sorry that you have been let down by the police and courts. I’m sorry that people have been so insensitive and seemed to condone what he has done. I’m sorry some Christians seem to be too busy trying to love the ‘sinner’ that they forget to love and care and support the victims of crime. You are NOT being unreasonable. I hope you are OK, I hope you feel safe are finding the support you need to deal with the aftermath of all this.

Such bigoted views about Christians on this thread make me sad. Never attribute to malice that which would be adequately explained by stupidity. I would guess some of the ‘alpha course’ and church people have maybe been strung along, lied to and perhaps they are just hopelessly naïve. It happens. Churches are full of people. Anyone can join a church, the good, the bad, the spiritually ugly, saints and hypocrites, stupid and wise alike.

The controversial message of the Gospel is that God accepts and loves and forgives anyone whatever we have done wrong in this life IF we are TRULY sorry. Nothing suggests that this vile harassing man has actually had this kind of profound change of heart and direction. I hope for his sake he has, because although he might fool his friends, he might fool Christians, he can’t fool God. OP I hope that is not cold comfort for you. You have my admiration and sympathy.

STOP monitoring him!

IF he turns up, deal with it. The police will back you, as will the courts.

Leave him behind and get on with your life, please. It's the best revenge possible.

There is no need to fear him anymore.

I think it is a really fucking bad idea to get involved with his life in any way shape or form.

Really really bad advice to contact his churcb or even the Bishop. Just leave it be.

I imagine they see him as a project and are really into the idea of him finding god and redeeming himself. They may be a little naive or self-delusional about that.

They probably weren't celebrating him 'getting away with it' as he hadn't, he'd served his sentence. They were probably celebrating his freedom to take responsibility for himself and move on with his new, better, godly life. In that context, it's not so odd or sinister that they'd see it as cause for celebration and post pictures.

C of E have appointed their first woman bishop recently and there will be more. I hate to see any religious group slated en masse for the failings of a minority. Just because not all Christians follow the doctrines does not make it acceptable to allow vile outpourings against a whole religion.
Friday wouldn't dare say such things about Muslims and quite rightly so.
OP I understand your fear and your need to keep some sort of watch on this horrible man. I really hope you will be safe from him now.

I'm not commenting on the Christian angle as to me it's not relevant.

Many people see the decision of courts as being for punishment and when it's been served then the time have been done and the person convicted has the opportunity for a clean slate to show they have been rehabilitated and make something good come out of the rest of their life. I suspect that's the attitude taken here.

C of E have appointed their first woman bishop recently

No they haven't. They've only passed the measure to start the legislative process last week. But if you're right, you'll be able to name her, right?

Friday wouldn't dare say such things about Muslims and quite rightly so.

They're more likely to blow shit up, and provoking violent people into being violent isn't a good idea. Perhaps if Christians went around decapitating soldiers in south London streets people would be more frightened respectful of their religion. Do you think that's a good way to go? People didn't criticise the major churches when burning at the stake was more common, either.

If Christians want to start a programme of terrorism in order to secure the same cowed refusal to engage that Islam has managed to obtain in this country, I'm sure blowing up Richard Dawkins' house would be quite effective. But it does seem a strange argument to advance: "religion X has secured a complete block on criticism because a small minority of extremists are violent terrorists; it's not fair that our religion hasn't got the same respect". If Nicky Gumbell made a suicide video and then blew himself up on the tube just outside Russell Square, people wouldn't be quite as rude about the Alpha Course, either. I don't think that's quite the point of religion, but perhaps you disagree.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25159579
This is the first Anglian Woman Bishop in the British Isles, I think. church of Wales has been criticised and I think may well appoint one soon.
I would personally expect the first Woman Bishop to be appointed pretty soon after the vote next July. Probably as a Sufferagen (sp) maybe with some bloke moved to one of the probably held open Diocesian role, but just possibly to a Diocese (maybe even mine).

Not all Christians are mature, experienced people. It can be hard to learn to balance the doctrine of forgiveness with justice and not being naive. You Ex must be a pretty good manipulator to have been able to harass so many people for so long.
Is the Vicar the full Vicar for the parish? Or a Curate of some sort? If just a Curate you might want to let his overall Vicar know. (If you feel generous.)

I do think there could be a safeguarding issue here, but it isn't your job to inform them. They should be carrying out appropriate checks. It will also probably blow up in their faces.

This is the first Anglian Woman Bishop in the British Isles, I think.

Indeed. But I was responding to a claim that the CofE was appointing women. It isn't. There have been Anglican women bishops in many jurisdictions for getting on for twenty five years (Massachusetts first, I think) and the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church in the USA is now a woman. What's good enough for the Americans isn't, unfortunately in this case, good enough for here.

And of course, although we probably wouldn't allow special racist areas in which racism is OK in order to provide a smooth transition for racists, the CofE won't actually appoint women bishops on the same footing as men. Con-Evos will be able to opt out, just as they are able to opt of having women vicars (resolution A and resolution B, or whatever it is) and the various "alternative supervision" processes that are proposed will allow those that refuse to accept the validity of a woman bishop's orders to refuse her supervision. If the CofE had a measure which said "we'll allow black bishops, but if you want to insist that they aren't real bishops you can pass a 'whites only' resolution in your congregation and stick to only having white ones" that would would be rightly condemned, but when it comes to having women at the altar, that's exactly what the CofE does.

Which is why the tired "oh, we're a persecuted religion, you wouldn't say that of Muslims" thing is so stupid. Christians discriminate, officially, against women, and intend to continue to do so. And in a way which, if were done towards black members of the church, would be both illegal and widely condemned. The CofE gets to be off the naughty step when anyone who refuses to accept the legitimacy of a woman bishop's orders is thrown out of the church.

Op, One thing that stands out from your post is that you need to disengage from this man. Replying to emails, even to set the record straight is feeding his harassment. Ignore, block, change emails etc. I hope you have done this now.

It doesn't matter what he says about you to his friends, you can't control that.

Checking Facebook could be a safety measure but it's also engaging you emotionally.

If there are concerns about his volunteer status, talk to the police and let them handle it. Don't get involved yourself by emailing the church. Every contact you have with him, even indirectly, will give him power over the situation.

Good luck op.

No, I don't agree Aussie (and others) that bringing this to the attention of the bishop is feeding his harassment. The church in question has to be held accountable and a bishop would, hopefully, recognise that the OP's identity should not be disclosed in this instance.

I perfectly understand you feeling the need to keep tracks of this man. I don't think you are doing it in any ghoulish sense. I hope you can breath easy when he is finally behind bars for a good stretch. yy miracles do happen but imo God isn't a wizard and usually takes offenders along for the accountable ride.

I suppose this gets interesting when he gets done for the next one, and the next one and the etc.... At what point do these people accept there is no redemption? He has three convictions - two for harassment. And others are coming to the boil. So even if it was done in a 'fresh start' kind of spirit, or veiled with that as the pretext, it will all be totally pointless.

But at what point do they realise "Hang on, this idiot isn't changing at all, is he?" I saw them sit looking horrified as things came out in court - the reality clearly wasn't the version they'd been told. Yet 4 weeks later they were back supporting him as if all that hadn't happened, and he hadn't been lying in court. And, let's not overlook the swearing on the bible rubbish - so presumably pleading Not Guilty then being found Guilty is some form of jesus perjury, as well as real life perjury, no?

You can't change him, you can't change them. You seem to think you can and that leads to anger & frustration.

They will have their own reasons for supporting him - and it does sound like this is taking an awful lot of your time and energy - way more than he deserves. I can see how you feel the need to monitor his movements, but doesn't that also stop you from moving on and enjoying life?

Could you ask a trusted friend to keep an eye on his fb and twitter and alert you if there is anything you need to worry about? If he were to plan anything do you really think he'd broadcast it first anyway?

Have you had any support from harassment/DV charities? How can you best move forwards and away from him mentally as well as physically?

Wishing you well

I think I am probably looking for closure where there can't be any. Just the thought of these malignant or epically naive people getting away with it. You are right though. I have to move on - just want to know if I am being unreasonable thinking they're wrong.

You can think what you like.

But don't under any circumstances put yourself back on his radar.

Try to forget about him as much as possible, who knows maybe their support will work and he will give it up.

You are still letting him control you.

You are certainly NBU to think they are fools.

But I think that just takes you to pitying them for their foolishness. This is how such people operate, they will carry on doing so.

They will see their role as being actively non-judgemental (judgement is god's job and the law's). They are there to offer hope of redemption, however unlikely that seems and however many times it fails to happen. They want to be there just in case, on the hundredth occasion, he sees the light for a moment and could be steered in their preferred direction.

Do step back, you can't stop him doing it again either. You're not some sort of virtual guardian angel.

The idea of getting someone else to monitor his activity just in case there's a potential threat to you is a good one. In the nicest possible way, I think you need to get a new and better hobby and have some fun, if you possibly can.

Amicissima, in private life, that is fair enough.

But coming to court as a character witness, saying, give this guy the benefit of the doubt, w are Christians and we vouch for him- that is a different matter.

They ought to be more careful who they vouch for in court and then send out to do voluntary work with the vulnerable. It's unprofessional.

You can't have it both ways. Either they are normally fallible people, in which case they don't deserve any special credibility in court and certainly shouldn't be appointing and vetting volunteer workers.

Or they are semi professionals who deserve a hearing in court and can be trusted with their community work, in which case they should be much more careful.

Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of this type of naivete in the church. It is dangerous imo. It also doesn't come close to Jesus' teaching and is a trite reworking; along the lines of 'everything's alright now we've found Jesus'. It is desperately stupid imo.

Thankfully, God is much more realistic (imo) and, to that end, I do think the impulse for justice is deeply human and, imo, realistic. To see him partying, aided and abetted by these enablers people sticks in the craw. I think it is absolutely sane to want justice, to know that that is what you want, valid and legitimate. (btw imo there will be justice in this, if that's any comfort: you can't waggle that stuff around under God's nose and expect to get away with it.)

You can choose to put it aside, however; particularly if the quest for justice is interfering with your current peace.

Given that the whole root of religions (every single fucking one of them) is men's envy, fear and hatred of women, it's no surprise at all that they are instituationally supportive of rapists, child abusers and all forms of male violence against women and children. All these mythologies are about inventing reasons for the control of birth to be in the hands of men, not women. The rest of it is just guff, agricultural analogies and a patching in of garbled local legends.

I also think that it would be a better idea to get a friend keep an occasional eye on this dickhead's FB rather than wasting any more of your own energy on him. Sadly he probably won't go down until he's got several more attacks on women under his belt, and even more sadly, once he starts attacking women attached to his current gang of superstitious fuckwits, the women will be the ones ostracized and punished by the church.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to have better judgement just because s/he is a Christian.

Given that Christianity is mostly about smugly claiming to be better than the rest of us, why shouldn't we hold them to the allegedly higher and more virtuous standards they claim they have? If they don't want to be criticised for their fallibility, a good starting point would be to stop claiming to be infallible.

I find it very frustrating that some people on this thread really don't have a clue what Christianity is about

It is not about smugly claiming to be infallible or better than everyone else. It is about acknowledging our own brokenness and the truth that it is only the giving and receiving of love that can help us to be better people.
Jesus spent a lot of time with people who had done wrong, because he knew that drawing them into society was the only way to make them better people.

OP your ex sounds like an absolute nutter who probably should be locked away somewhere while he gets some treatment. I am a Christian, but not a good enough one to have the stomach to try to help someone like him.

But I am glad there are some Christians around who are at least trying.

Moomin, nobody disagrees with that while Christians are in their private spheres. It's when they take part in the justice process, and claim special respect and credibility for their character references, that it is irresponsible and unprofessional.