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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to keep my UK passport if Scotland votes YES in the 2014 referendum?

967 replies

SittingBull1 · 16/11/2013 19:50

If the majority of people actually voting votes YES in the 2014 referendum, Scotland will leave the UK. As Scots living in Scotland, will my family and I lose our UK passports? Along with a very large number of NO voters, my family and I will want to retain our UK passports, and I'm sure that a huge percentage of the non-voters will also want to keep theirs. I think that the UK government should offer to allow Scots living in Scotland to retain their UK passports. Is that unreasonable?

OP posts:
LessMissAbs · 29/11/2013 21:35

I am irritated less by Scottish nationalism itself than its tendency to believe that it is some how different, better and more inclusive than all other nationalisms

I've known of a friend asked his opinion about it in a job interview by a Yes campaigner, and he felt unable to state his true opinion and said he didn't know.

I find all nationalistic fervour distasteful. I don't discriminate. Hearing a Chinese athlete after winning an Olympic medal wax fakely lyrical about how she did it for her Great Leader makes me want to puke as much as some of the Scottish nationalistic outpourings.

Is there something about this group of people (Scottish nationalists) that makes them particularly prone to being taken in by groupthink? Has anyone ever done a psychological assessment of them?

LessMissAbs · 29/11/2013 21:38

The Flemings and the Walloons here have a bit of an unhappy union. Scottish independence is likely to fuel that, in the heart of Europe. Except I suppose life is so damned good in Belgium that working up a fervour has too much competition from all the good interesting stuff you can do.

FannyFifer · 29/11/2013 21:43

Christ it's not about being special.

What on earth is wrong with a country wanting to run its own affairs?

Being run by a government based in another country is not a normal state of affairs.

LessMissAbs · 29/11/2013 21:52

I believe that is why a referendum is required in what is still a part of a genuine democracy in what is still a part of the UK, FannyFifer. I believe there is a piece of legislation called the Act of Union 1707 which precisely answers the question you have posed, and which has been around for several centuries for you to familiarise yourself with.

Toadinthehole · 29/11/2013 22:21

FannyFifer

You've missed the point; probably deliberately.

SantanaLopez · 29/11/2013 22:24

What did you think of the White Paper then fanny?

Toadinthehole · 29/11/2013 22:54

Come to think of it, it's entirely normal for one country to be ruled by a government based in another country. There are federations all over the world, and increasingly delegation of powers to, for example, particular ethnic groups within countries. This is perfectly legitimate and democratic, and it is done because it suits all concerned.

There are "countries" within bigger states all over Europe, let alone the rest of the world.

Toadinthehole · 29/11/2013 22:55

Heck - what's more, even if Scotland becomes independent in the manner the nationalists claim, it will continue in some respects to be governed from Brussels.

FannyFifer · 30/11/2013 01:11

White paper, some good stuff, some blah stuff from what i have seen so far.
I'm waiting on my copy being sent out as can digest better than reading online.
Have been quite enjoying Patrick Harvie of late, quite liking the Green vision of Independence.
They would probably get my vote in the future.

Toadinthehole · 30/11/2013 02:23

Would the Green version of independence involve selling lots of fossil fuels?

Spiritedwolf · 30/11/2013 08:49

I do struggle with the sort of nationalism displayed here, and by the commentator panelist of this week's Question Time, it goes something like "But isn't it proper for the Scottish people to govern ourselves, we're a country?".

The idea is that the only answer to this question for someone who believes in democracy is yes. But the questioner has choosen the grouping and it simplifies politics - in reality there are many different layers of decision making, covering different sizes of populations and these layers all exist at once.

Because the following are also true
"Isn't it proper for the people of Fife to govern themselves, it is the Kingdom of Fife afterall?"
"Isn't it proper for Shetlanders to govern themselves, after all they are a group of islands?"
"Isn't it proper for Aberdonians to govern themselves, after all it is a historic city?"

I don't mean they are true in that I'm suggesting they should declare themselves independent and aim to get into the EU. I mean that at some level, these groups of people have a right to make decisions together which mainly affect them. That's why we have local authorities and at the Scottish level, that's why we have the parliament. But that works on certain issues, delivery of local services etc. When it comes to larger issues, like running energy infrastructure, monetary policy, 212combating climate change, defending our borders and providing international aid, it makes more sense for us to work with our neighbours and to have a democratic voice in that level of decision making. We might work with the rest of the UK or with Europe to achieve certain goals.

Because its also true that:
"Isn't it proper for the people of the UK to govern ourselves?"
"Isn't it proper for the people of Europe to govern ourselves?"

I am comfortable with having different levels of 'belonging' and attachment, some of which are geographical - the town I live in, the county, the region, Scotland, the UK, Europe (the UN, humanity, the world, the universe Wink ). But some are through my personal history and family connections (which includes counties in England), places I've visited and liked, some are cultural (lots of these across the UK), language etc, some are political.

And in terms of having a voice, we have community councils, city or county councils, the Scottish parliament (which has regional representation as well as constituencies), the UK government (with different constituencies) and Europe. I think all these groupings have value, you can argue about which things should be decided at each level
but given the shared interests we have across the UK I think its a bit odd to say that no decisions should be made at that level.

Indeed the SNP plan to make decisions at that level with regards the currency, I haven't yet read the white paper, but I remember they were saying about having a shared energy policy and I get the impression that they'd like a lot of other things to remain the same too (university research funding, network rail etc).

The difference is that they'd like to take away our MPs, who give us a democratically elected voice on these matters, and replace them with the odd Scottish person on a board somewhere, which the rUK may or may not agree to.

I find it quite strange to see the SNP (&co) argue for no decisions to be made at a UK level, but want to be part of Europe. While UKIP want no decisions made at Europe, but only at the UK level.

(I started writing this last night, sorry if the discussion has moved on, of if my post is disjointed. I hope no one here has friends or family caught up in the helicopter accident, its so shocking).

ForalltheSaints · 30/11/2013 10:49

I think this an academic question. The Scots will vote no for a variety of reasons.

TiggyD · 30/11/2013 11:07

I reckon we should get rid of Scotland. Then bribe bribe Shetland, Orkney and possibly the Faroes to join us.

They'll soon be begging to come back.

kaumana · 30/11/2013 19:19

Tiggy I find that very offensive. I will not vote "yes" but I can see why the "us and them" get their view point from.

mirry2 · 30/11/2013 19:58

Kaumana surely the referendum is ample evidence that the 'us and them' view originates from the Scottish side? ie we don't want to be part of the UK.

Mark my words this will all end badly for Scottish/ruk relations

HumpdayPlus · 30/11/2013 20:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MmmmWhiteWine · 30/11/2013 20:16

fannyfifer the point nationalists miss is that many Scots don't feel they are being run by a government in "another country". Britain is my country. I'm Scottish and British and am equally proud (if you can be proud of something you have no control over) of both. I certainly don't identify with this put upon, subjugated view of Scotland that you seem to have.

kaumana · 30/11/2013 20:19

Mirry I do see your point, ie off you fuck, but the majority( currently) don't wish this so when I read your posts I feel damned if I do damned if I don't.

MmmmWhiteWine · 30/11/2013 20:21

mirry2 I think the "us and them" point of view represents only a very small % of the Scottish population. Of everyone I have ever spoken to about independent I only know of 2 people who have said they're going to vote Yes. I truly hope and pray that the No vote wins the days as I do believe that's what the majority led Scots want.

MmmmWhiteWine · 30/11/2013 20:22

God, I can't type!! Too many typos to correct! Blush

HumpdayPlus · 30/11/2013 20:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kaumana · 30/11/2013 21:16

Humpy Grin

LessMissAbs · 30/11/2013 21:20

You know that in the former communist Soviet Union, "enemies of the state" were defined as anyone who didn't say they believed in the one party one view, and were actually classified as suffering from mental illness which required "treatment" if they didn't.

Reminds me of the views of some of the posters on this thread.

MmmmWhiteWine · 30/11/2013 21:25

Humpday, I didn't say it doesn't exist....only that its very definitely a minority view. Just like the charming Londoner who once told me "I 'ate the Scotch" ;-)

FannyFifer · 30/11/2013 21:28

Except there is more than one Party that supports Independence.
SNP, Green Party, Socialist Party and even members of the Labour Party.

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