To want to keep my UK passport if Scotland votes YES in the 2014 referendum?

[SittingBull1]

If the majority of people actually voting votes YES in the 2014 referendum, Scotland will leave the UK. As Scots living in Scotland, will my family and I lose our UK passports? Along with a very large number of NO voters, my family and I will want to retain our UK passports, and I'm sure that a huge percentage of the non-voters will also want to keep theirs. I think that the UK government should offer to allow Scots living in Scotland to retain their UK passports. Is that unreasonable?

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I leave that up to the Yes evangelists. I am pointing out that its easier to relocate between one EU member state and another.

Have the Yes campaign bothered to provide a timetable should independence be voted for, so we know how long its safe to remain? Mind you, the passport issue then becomes very relevant. Will Scots living and working in EU member states be issued with non EU Scottish passports and forced to return home if not granted indefinate visas? I can imagine Spain causing an issue there. What does the Yes campaign have to say?

I really think labelling anyone who asks sensible questions about independence a 'scaremongerer' is appalling. And patronising.

Its not much of an argument, is it?0

An Icelandic business colleague reminded me yesterday that Greenland stayed part of the EU when they were granted Home Rule by Denmark (1979?) but that they then voted to leave the EU in 1983 - and that it then took a further two years to actually leave - for all the reasons mentioned (ensuring that people had appropriate permissions to work/weren't left stateless etc). Not sure about the dates and the detail - haven't had a chance to look at it myself - but it does appear to be an interesting parallel.

*The EU will not take membership away in a yes vote. The yes vote automatically does that by making Scotland a new country.

I mentioned upthread, my DH's firm have made plans to leave ASAP if there is a yes vote*

My point was that Scotland is in the EU until independence day, when it may or may not continue. This was in response to LessMissAbs suggesting people should leave Scotland now just in case.

Furthermore, the Scots are not voting about whether to leave the EU, they are voting about whether to leave the UK.

What is your opinion on the 'google letter

That it is genuine, and valid, and backs the Yes case for continuation in the EU. Unfortunately as you know there are equal proofs backing the No argument. I guess voters just have to decide if they think the EU will want to lose Scotland or not.

I really think labelling anyone who asks sensible questions about independence a 'scaremongerer' is appalling. And patronising

You were not asking sensible questions. You were making sensationalist assertions.

"Equally interesting to see a northern European country implode under a corrupt self serving regime, as nothing like that has happened in recent history"

"its easier to move now, while you still can, than later"

Furthermore, the Scots are not voting about whether to leave the EU, they are voting about whether to leave the UK.

Yes. Leaving the UK, and leaving all of the benefits of being in the UK behind- EU membership included. Scotland will have to apply.

That it is genuine, and valid, and backs the Yes case for continuation in the EU.

What? A letter sent to an anonymous internet journalist, misquoted purposely by the man leading the campaign is valid?

I've also made the point upthread that dh is in the process of setting up an American subsidiary and manufacturing operation which will go ahead next year whatever the result of the vote

Maybe that will counter-balance SantanLopez' dh's company

A major part of the initial business will be within Scotland, but that is because structurally it is easy to access more of the particular market sector that the products will be sold into - which helps the business case. Longer term, the product will be sold into England, Wales and Ireland and the rest of Europe - using the Scottish customers as case studies.

A letter sent to an anonymous internet journalist, misquoted purposely by the man leading the campaign is valid

The letter is from Mario-Paulo Tenreiro, who is responsible for institutional questions at the Secretariat General of the European Commission. Seems a reasonably valid source? Does it matter who asked?

I'm not sure the letter has been misquoted I haven't seen what Salmond said but the letter confirms that Scotland would be able to negotiate from within the EU.

(link: newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8152-exclusive-ec-official-confirms-no-legal-barrier-to-continued-scottish-eu-membership)

The letter also confirms that in terms of the result of negotiations it cannot comment unless asked by the member state, ie Uk. Why has the UK not asked? It seems that the Westminster government could clear up an awful lot of the uncertainties if it wanted to, but presumably it is relying on uncertainty to bolster the no vote.

I don't want to leave my home, so you'll understand me disagreeing with you there prettybird! Sounds a really interesting project though.

This is what I'm talking about, Itsall.here

Mr Salmond deliberately did not quote the part of the letter which said that a change in treaty required the unanimity of all Member States.

I'm sure you'll agree that a letter sent to a member of the public would not be the same quality as a letter sent to a First Minister.

I will ask you again- why should Westminster do the Yes Campaign's work for them?

Have the Yes campaign bothered to provide a timetable should independence be voted for, so we know how long its safe to remain

Independence day 24/03/2016

Will Scots living and working in EU member states be issued with non EU Scottish passports and forced to return home if not granted indefinate visas? I can imagine Spain causing an issue there. What does the Yes campaign have to say

Inherent to citizenship is the right to hold a passport. In an independent Scotland all British citizens born or habitually resident in Scotland on day one of independence will have the right to acquire a Scottish passport, although, as in most countries, there will be no requirement to hold one. A Scottish passport will also be available to anyone who acquires Scottish citizenship through naturalisation. It is envisaged that passport lengths will continue to be five years for children and 10 years for adults and will carry a fee comparable to that presently required for a UK passport which will be used to cover the administrative and production costs of the passport. The Scottish Government will continue to recognise any currently valid UK passports until their expiry date.

Mr Salmond deliberately did not quote the part of the letter which said that a change in treaty required the unanimity of all Member States

As I said, I have not seen the speech in question, so cannot comment. However, the White Paper says, "The Scottish Government recognises it will be for the EU member states, meeting under the auspices of the Council, to take forward the most appropriate procedure under which an independent Scotland will become a signatory to the EU Treaties at the point at which it becomes independent"

ItsAllGoingToBeFine You were not asking sensible questions. You were making sensationalist assertions

Don't be ridiculous. These are the epitome of sensible questions.

Certainly not as sensationalist as suggesting that a country with a population of 5 million is a medium sized country.

This sort of dismissive attitude is so typical of the bully boy tactics of the Yes campaigners when confronted with people that disagree with them.

I repeat again, who would want to live in a country like that? Theres nothing traditionally Scottish about it. That isn't the real Scotland. Since when did Scotland become a whinging nation full of people feeling oppressed and needing more money spent on benefits and creating fake jobs than their neighbours?

You should be trying to attract intelligent, financially solvent people to stay in or move to Scotland, not putting them off.

Itsallgoingtobefine The letter also confirms that in terms of the result of negotiations it cannot comment unless asked by the member state, ie Uk. Why has the UK not asked? It seems that the Westminster government could clear up an awful lot of the uncertainties if it wanted to, but presumably it is relying on uncertainty to bolster the no vote

Why on earth would the UK spend taxpayer's money on finding out information on behalf of a political cause? Where do you think that would end? There are a lot of causes out there more important than Alex Salmond's obsession.

Art.289 in the White Paper is so misleading, its Soviet in nature.

If you were born in Scotland you will get the passport if you want, Humpday. Won't be able to vote, strangely enough, but hey ho.

372. What will independence mean for citizenship in Scotland?

Our proposal is that on day one of independence, all British citizens who live in Scotland and all British citizens born in Scotland but residing elsewhere would automatically be considered Scottish citizens. Others may be able to apply for citizenship following independence through routes such as citizenship by descent or by naturalisation.

Under these proposals Scotland would not create a barrier to individuals holding Scottish citizenship alongside British or any other citizenship.

373. What would being a Scottish citizen mean and how would I prove that I am a Scottish citizen? Would there be a registration process?

As outlined above, all British citizens who are habitually resident in Scotland at the date of independence and all British citizens born in Scotland but resident elsewhere would automatically be considered a Scottish citizen. There would be no registration required and there are no plans to have a Scottish ID card.

The letter is not an "equal proof". It is not a legal opinion. A legal opinion is an analysis of the law written by a trained lawyer and LessMissAbs will say court is likely to decide should the same problem be put to it. It is the best comfort one can have in the absence of a court judgment in your favour.

It is certainly better than the random remarks of a bureaucrat.

prettybird

By taking Home Rule, Greenland remained part of the Danish state, just ruling itself. It didn't take on its own sovereignty. If Scotland adopted Home Rule, it would be in precisely the same situation as it would remain part of the UK. That is not what Salmond is proposing.

A better example is Algeria. Prior to its independence, it was part of the EEC by virtue of being part of the French state. It left in (I think) 1962 by virtue of becoming independent of France.

Why on earth would the UK spend taxpayer's money on finding out information on behalf of a political cause? Where do you think that would end? There are a lot of causes out there more important than Alex Salmond's obsession.

This.

One of my chief memories from living in Scotland is the almost burning, religious-like conviction that the nationalists held. They just knew they were right. The consequence of that was they thought that anyone who disagreed with them was a liar, a fearmonger, or absurd.

We see the same attitude at work in the suggestion that it is up to the British state to make representations on behalf of a particular political lobby.

However, the White Paper says, "The Scottish Government recognises it will be for the EU member states, meeting under the auspices of the Council, to take forward the most appropriate procedure under which an independent Scotland will become a signatory to the EU Treaties at the point at which it becomes independent"

This is blatantly misleading.

It deliberately omits to state that it is also for EU member states to decide whether Scotland becomes a signatory to the EU Treaties at all.

Alex Salmond doesn't really have the attention to detail required for a leader of a democracy with a civilised legal system.

I really am disgusted by his attempts to mislead. Its so bad for Scotland's reputation on the international stage.

Too bad if you don't like people posing perfectly reasonable questions, Itsallgoingtobefine. What on earth do you think happens in a debate of this magnitude? Stop whinging.

Questions also need to be asked what will happen if the Yes campaigners fail and the vote is No. I assume they have researched this? Will Scots really be expected to pay higher taxes for a bloated public sector to encompass a bunch of failed egotists?

Toad that's what I mean by intolerance. Intolerance of perfectly reasonable alternative viewpoints in a democracy.

I have actually felt at times that I was in danger of being assaulted (in fact I was once) for stating my opposition to independence and I suspect most No supporters simply don't declare out of desire to avoid being lectured to by patronising Yes campaigners or hunted down by Cybernats.

Toad on the letter being blatently misleading
It deliberately omits to state that it is also for EU member states to decide whether Scotland becomes a signatory to the EU Treaties at all*

If the EU decided to let an independent Scotland enter into negotiations to join the EU, they risk a momentous split with Spain, Cyprus and Greece, all of whom are almost certain to oppose it, plus any other country which has a significant separatist movement within it. Will the taxpayer be expected to fund yet again this time a European wide referendum on Scotland?

I should imagine Spain are quite worried about a rise in terrorist attacks by Basque separatists the more the Scottish independence referendum hits the news.

Is anyone else sick of hearing about Scotland, Scotland this, Scottish that, Scottish we are so great, we are so special because we are Scottish? I'm Scottish, and I am. What an embarrassment.

I believe you. I have had precisely the same experience.

I am irritated less by Scottish nationalism itself than its tendency to believe that it is some how different, better and more inclusive than all other nationalisms.

Tangentally, it appears that the Mercians are on the march too. Militarism and paganism, under the banner of St Alban and young women in corsets.